Hello again. I thought I would get back to you concerning Adam and Eve. I am referring to your statements in May under "Original Sin"
The original sin was not sex. The forbidden fruit is not referring to having sex. Sex was designed by the Creator as a special gift that allows a husband and wife to express oneness in intimate and exclusive love and to share in His plan for procreation. Here are two verses from Genesis that show God's intention for Adam and Eve to have sexual relations before sin entered the world. "Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and the wife, and were not ashamed." Genesis 2:24. "Then God blessed them and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply, fill the earth and subdue it'". Genesis 1:28
I could quote many verses/passages in the Bible that would make many blush. Just read Song of Solomon 4:1-16 and Proverbs 5:15-20. In both of these passages the view God gives of the sexual relationship in marriage is of an exciting, erotic, intoxicating, and loving partnership. In 1 Corinthians Normal sexual behavior is summarized as an intimacy in which the bodies of husband and wife belong to one another (exclusively) and that neither is to withhold marital rights from the other.
Sex was given by God as the most natural high human bodies can experience. It is only destructive and sinful when uncontrolled or misused.
One thing you said I do agree with--we are born into sin, but it is not because of sex and the birth canal but because Adam and Eve introduced sin into the world through their disobedience. All sin is expressed as "I know better than God in this matter" and that leads to putting self in the place of God. Satan tempted Eve by making her question God---- "Did God really say 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden?'" (Genesis 3:1) and he has been doing the same to all of us ever since. God has not given us his Word so we can make a reasoned evaluation of his judgment and decide whether or not we want to obey. He has given us His Word because that Word is TRUTH and LIFE.
AND, the only way to be saved from our sin is in the message of the cross. I want to share this teaching with you from John Mark, a pastor from Solid Rock Church downtown Portland---"The foolishness of the Cross". I don't know how to get the link here but if you copy and paste the address below you should get it. It is podcast or video. Please take the time to watch this, it is well worth it! He does an amazing job of explaining God's wisdom verses man's wisdom. I believe you will appreciate his wit and intellect.
http://www.ajesuschurch.org/teachings/all-teachings/10-17-2010.mp3
Believer in the Truth
This is a friendly conversation between you dear readers and me. I am an agnostic but love to talk to believers.
Wednesday, November 3, 2010
Friday, September 24, 2010
Definition of a RADICAL Christ follower
OK, I knew you would say something about the length of my last blog. Sorry, but in all fairness I have read a few lengthy articles from you (so were even?). I will try to keep it shorter.
Here is the definition of RADICAL-- "Marked by a considerable departure from the usual or traditional:EXTREME".
When I talk about being a Radical Christian I am not talking about being radical for religion (as a set of man made attitudes, beliefs and practices); I'm talking about being Radical in our love for Christ/GOD and that is NEVER a bad thing. How can you love God too much. Don't we crave our spouses to be radically in love with us; so much so that they would lay down their lives for us if need be.
Unfortunately the norm for most Christians in the U.S. is mediocrity or go with the flow. We have let everything and anything take the place that God should have in our hearts, thus when we do see someone on fire for God, by definition, they are "RADICAL".
Let me give a few examples of Radical Christians that we should ALL thank for departing from the usual and being EXTREME--
1)Joan of Arc: led one of the greatest campaigns for freedom the world has ever seen. She bravely departed from the religion of the day and radically followed God.
2)Richard Wurmbrand: a Romanian Jewish atheist who later discovered the love of Christ and spent his life bravely spreading the gospel. When his country was confronted with communism and many were forsaking their faith out of fear, he bravely stood and declared his loyalty to Christ. He spent 14 years in prison and wrote the classic "Tortured for Christ". He continued to spread the gospel of Christ right up to his death. He is a voice for the persecuted church throughout the world and his work is established in over 80 restricted nations and 30 countries. He never lifted a finger against anyone.
3)Saint Nick, Saint Patrick, Saint Valentine: all of these saints whom the world has
transformed into something else in order to nullify their testimonies were Radically in love with Christ and out of that love did great things (I would love to share more about them but won't because of length).
4)Paul (or formerly known as Saul before he was Radically reformed for Christ): Paul is a perfect example of the difference of being Radical for a religion verses being Radically in love with Christ. Paul was so radical about his Jewish belief that he was frantically killing Christ followers right and left. Love was not his motivation; He was motivated by fear. Those who kill others for what they believe are motivated out of fear not love. After meeting Christ on the road to Damascus he RADICALLY changed and spent his life being persecuted for Christ. He went from being the persecutor to the persecuted. He was Radical in both positions but the second he was a true revolutionary.
Let me just end by saying RADICAL Christians are unwilling to set aside TRUTH for the convenience of being accepted or the privilege of living only by their own desires. They are unwilling to force their ways upon others, and they are unwilling to fight back when fighting back would deny the LOVE they are trying to show those hurting them. They fight for the spiritual freedom that is only found in Jesus and are unwilling to let that freedom go for anything.
believer in the Truth
Here is the definition of RADICAL-- "Marked by a considerable departure from the usual or traditional:EXTREME".
When I talk about being a Radical Christian I am not talking about being radical for religion (as a set of man made attitudes, beliefs and practices); I'm talking about being Radical in our love for Christ/GOD and that is NEVER a bad thing. How can you love God too much. Don't we crave our spouses to be radically in love with us; so much so that they would lay down their lives for us if need be.
Unfortunately the norm for most Christians in the U.S. is mediocrity or go with the flow. We have let everything and anything take the place that God should have in our hearts, thus when we do see someone on fire for God, by definition, they are "RADICAL".
Let me give a few examples of Radical Christians that we should ALL thank for departing from the usual and being EXTREME--
1)Joan of Arc: led one of the greatest campaigns for freedom the world has ever seen. She bravely departed from the religion of the day and radically followed God.
2)Richard Wurmbrand: a Romanian Jewish atheist who later discovered the love of Christ and spent his life bravely spreading the gospel. When his country was confronted with communism and many were forsaking their faith out of fear, he bravely stood and declared his loyalty to Christ. He spent 14 years in prison and wrote the classic "Tortured for Christ". He continued to spread the gospel of Christ right up to his death. He is a voice for the persecuted church throughout the world and his work is established in over 80 restricted nations and 30 countries. He never lifted a finger against anyone.
3)Saint Nick, Saint Patrick, Saint Valentine: all of these saints whom the world has
transformed into something else in order to nullify their testimonies were Radically in love with Christ and out of that love did great things (I would love to share more about them but won't because of length).
4)Paul (or formerly known as Saul before he was Radically reformed for Christ): Paul is a perfect example of the difference of being Radical for a religion verses being Radically in love with Christ. Paul was so radical about his Jewish belief that he was frantically killing Christ followers right and left. Love was not his motivation; He was motivated by fear. Those who kill others for what they believe are motivated out of fear not love. After meeting Christ on the road to Damascus he RADICALLY changed and spent his life being persecuted for Christ. He went from being the persecutor to the persecuted. He was Radical in both positions but the second he was a true revolutionary.
Let me just end by saying RADICAL Christians are unwilling to set aside TRUTH for the convenience of being accepted or the privilege of living only by their own desires. They are unwilling to force their ways upon others, and they are unwilling to fight back when fighting back would deny the LOVE they are trying to show those hurting them. They fight for the spiritual freedom that is only found in Jesus and are unwilling to let that freedom go for anything.
believer in the Truth
Thursday, September 23, 2010
Goldwater & Extremists
Barry Goldwater once thundered in a convention speech that "extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice". Goldwater got it wrong - extremism is always a vice. It only leads to suffering and persecution. I assume when you wish there were more extreme Christians you are not wishing for the good old days of burning people alive to purify their souls.
Wednesday, September 22, 2010
Mind Dump
Whoa! Mind dump alert.
You wrote a biiiiiiiig blog entry so will have to chew on that for a while. Will respond in next few days but suffice it to say (which is obviously wrong since I will respond further), persecution of ANYONE for their religious belief is wrong, stupid, immoral, evil, and a bunch of other words that I can't think of. And - I've read about persecution of Christians in the 3rd world a lot so I don't think it is being ignored. But more on this later.
You wrote a biiiiiiiig blog entry so will have to chew on that for a while. Will respond in next few days but suffice it to say (which is obviously wrong since I will respond further), persecution of ANYONE for their religious belief is wrong, stupid, immoral, evil, and a bunch of other words that I can't think of. And - I've read about persecution of Christians in the 3rd world a lot so I don't think it is being ignored. But more on this later.
Monday, September 20, 2010
We need more RADICAL Christians
Hey David,
I welcome the opportunity to shed light on this controversial subject of Islamic extremist and how we should respond as a nation and individuals.
It would be stupid to go around blaming ALL Muslims for 9/11 and other acts of violence but just because not all Muslims are aware or act on the commands of their leader/book does not mean we should put our heads in the sand and ignore the danger Islam poses. Despite what many leaders (including many of our own) say around the world, Islam is not a religion of peace and if America and other countries continue to ignore their threats, teachings, tactics we will soon become an Islamic nation ourselves, void of the freedoms we now enjoy. Some experts have said within 5 to 7 years Islam will be the dominate religion of the world. Right now in several nations they don't even need violence to spread because the rate at which they propagate far exceeds everyone else.
If that doesn't scare you, look at the nations which are predominately Muslim and research how they treat people of other religions. I'll give you just a few recent examples----
*Nigeria (which the northern part is predominately Muslim), over 500 hundred Christians were SLAUGHTERED this March as the killers shouted Allah.
*A village in Indonesia's Central Maluku province, angry Muslims torched churches, dozens of homes and other properties after a Christian teacher allegedly made comments insulting Islam rights investigators said.
*In Pakistan in 2009 seven innocent Christians die in Punjab province at the hands of angry, violent Muslims.
*Just this June in the same province 250 Christian families were forced to leave their homes after Christians complained that Muslims were sexually assaulting girls and women, most of whom worked in Muslim families.
*Three Iranian Christians face execution. They are being threatened with the death penalty if they do not renounce their Christian faith and revert back to Islam, a network reported Monday, September 13.
David, I could go on and on. Muslims in the U.S. reap the benefits of "freedom of religion" but it will not be the same for other religions if this country is predominately Muslim. I feel for this Islamic housewife who endures hateful stares from Americans. That is not how I would treat her or any other Muslim. But why is it we are concerned about such stories but IGNORE BOLD threats, persecution, and MURDER of Christians around the world by Islamic followers. We need to wake up!!
And though we might commend moderate Muslims who wish it otherwise, the reality is-- we are involved in a conflict that Islamists promise will not cease until a global Islamic head becomes reality and Muslim Sharia law the universal instrument of justice. Refraining from the use of terms like jihadists, radical Islam, Islamic terrorists, or the like does not change the equation. It's war, and we are in it!!
I know I have stated before in blogs some differences between Mohammed and Christ, and the Qur'an and the Bible but the major difference I want to make clear is Islam is a religion based on mans effort to earn salvation/God, and Christianity is based on what God already did to save man. Man can not earn his own way to God nor can man erase his own sins by doing a list of things.
I don't need to make excuses for anything in the Bible. I might not understand everything but I know the Bible is God breathed and reliable above anything else on earth. I will not water it down to make it more acceptable to people nor do I have any interest in being a moderate Christian. I want to be a radical Christian, an extremist. I know Jesus personally and I want to obey Him because I love Him and trust Him (not because I am forced or brainwashed). He says the first and greatest commandment is to love Him and then to love my neighbor as myself. Can you imagine if every Christian was radical for Jesus--taking the Bible literally-forgiving their enemies and not only that--loving them. That is what RADICAL CHRISTIANITY looks like. Believe me, if we all followed what the Bible says (literally) we would have heaven on earth.
There are difficult passages that would be great to skip over but that is not how the Bible works. Take it all or reject it period!!!! If you spend time in God's Word you will realize how the Old Testament and New Testament flow and work together in one continuous story/plan. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. The verses on slavery you mentioned are an example of this---you say God is condoning slavery, "just make sure you treat them slaves nicely". If you dig deeper in His Word you will see He is pointing us to the fact that whether we are a slave, free, male, female, persecuted, sick, rich, poor we are HIS. HE is our Master (if we choose Him) and this world has no hold on us (it is not our home). So no matter what your current situation is, work/live as if you are working for HIM. He sees all, He will make all things right. Even Christ Himself came to us as a slave "He made himself nothing, he took the humble position of a SLAVE and appeared in human form" (Philippians 2:7). God does not contradict Himself and the life of Jesus is the best way for us to know God and His nature.
I hate to defend Christ and Christianity by putting down another religion but I grow tired of Mohammed and the Qur'an being compared to Christ and the Bible so let me end by pointing out a few things you might not know. This is what the Qur'an says about contradictions between two scriptures-- the scripture that came later overrides the first scripture written (meaning God changes or is not perfect and needs to correct himself). Mohammed lost both parents, his dad died days before he was born, his mom at the age of six. Later after loosing his grandfather he lived with an uncle. He traveled all over with his uncle thus picking up different belief systems. In his mid twenties he married a woman almost 20 yrs his senior. He could not read or write. The Qur'an is his reciting of revelations given to him (the first of which he thought he was possessed by demons but his wife convinced him otherwise). He never claimed to be divine. He never preformed miracles. He beheaded hundreds of Christians and was known for raping women and children. The negative, violent verses of the Qur'an (that people want us to ignore) were actually written after the peaceful verses thus negating the peaceful verses. The peaceful verses don't add up anyway if you look at the book as a whole and the life of Mohammed (the last and greatest profit from God).
A Christian martyrs say "I will die for what I believe".
A Muslim martyr says; "you will die for what I believe"
Believer in the TRUTH
I welcome the opportunity to shed light on this controversial subject of Islamic extremist and how we should respond as a nation and individuals.
It would be stupid to go around blaming ALL Muslims for 9/11 and other acts of violence but just because not all Muslims are aware or act on the commands of their leader/book does not mean we should put our heads in the sand and ignore the danger Islam poses. Despite what many leaders (including many of our own) say around the world, Islam is not a religion of peace and if America and other countries continue to ignore their threats, teachings, tactics we will soon become an Islamic nation ourselves, void of the freedoms we now enjoy. Some experts have said within 5 to 7 years Islam will be the dominate religion of the world. Right now in several nations they don't even need violence to spread because the rate at which they propagate far exceeds everyone else.
If that doesn't scare you, look at the nations which are predominately Muslim and research how they treat people of other religions. I'll give you just a few recent examples----
*Nigeria (which the northern part is predominately Muslim), over 500 hundred Christians were SLAUGHTERED this March as the killers shouted Allah.
*A village in Indonesia's Central Maluku province, angry Muslims torched churches, dozens of homes and other properties after a Christian teacher allegedly made comments insulting Islam rights investigators said.
*In Pakistan in 2009 seven innocent Christians die in Punjab province at the hands of angry, violent Muslims.
*Just this June in the same province 250 Christian families were forced to leave their homes after Christians complained that Muslims were sexually assaulting girls and women, most of whom worked in Muslim families.
*Three Iranian Christians face execution. They are being threatened with the death penalty if they do not renounce their Christian faith and revert back to Islam, a network reported Monday, September 13.
David, I could go on and on. Muslims in the U.S. reap the benefits of "freedom of religion" but it will not be the same for other religions if this country is predominately Muslim. I feel for this Islamic housewife who endures hateful stares from Americans. That is not how I would treat her or any other Muslim. But why is it we are concerned about such stories but IGNORE BOLD threats, persecution, and MURDER of Christians around the world by Islamic followers. We need to wake up!!
And though we might commend moderate Muslims who wish it otherwise, the reality is-- we are involved in a conflict that Islamists promise will not cease until a global Islamic head becomes reality and Muslim Sharia law the universal instrument of justice. Refraining from the use of terms like jihadists, radical Islam, Islamic terrorists, or the like does not change the equation. It's war, and we are in it!!
I know I have stated before in blogs some differences between Mohammed and Christ, and the Qur'an and the Bible but the major difference I want to make clear is Islam is a religion based on mans effort to earn salvation/God, and Christianity is based on what God already did to save man. Man can not earn his own way to God nor can man erase his own sins by doing a list of things.
I don't need to make excuses for anything in the Bible. I might not understand everything but I know the Bible is God breathed and reliable above anything else on earth. I will not water it down to make it more acceptable to people nor do I have any interest in being a moderate Christian. I want to be a radical Christian, an extremist. I know Jesus personally and I want to obey Him because I love Him and trust Him (not because I am forced or brainwashed). He says the first and greatest commandment is to love Him and then to love my neighbor as myself. Can you imagine if every Christian was radical for Jesus--taking the Bible literally-forgiving their enemies and not only that--loving them. That is what RADICAL CHRISTIANITY looks like. Believe me, if we all followed what the Bible says (literally) we would have heaven on earth.
There are difficult passages that would be great to skip over but that is not how the Bible works. Take it all or reject it period!!!! If you spend time in God's Word you will realize how the Old Testament and New Testament flow and work together in one continuous story/plan. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. The verses on slavery you mentioned are an example of this---you say God is condoning slavery, "just make sure you treat them slaves nicely". If you dig deeper in His Word you will see He is pointing us to the fact that whether we are a slave, free, male, female, persecuted, sick, rich, poor we are HIS. HE is our Master (if we choose Him) and this world has no hold on us (it is not our home). So no matter what your current situation is, work/live as if you are working for HIM. He sees all, He will make all things right. Even Christ Himself came to us as a slave "He made himself nothing, he took the humble position of a SLAVE and appeared in human form" (Philippians 2:7). God does not contradict Himself and the life of Jesus is the best way for us to know God and His nature.
I hate to defend Christ and Christianity by putting down another religion but I grow tired of Mohammed and the Qur'an being compared to Christ and the Bible so let me end by pointing out a few things you might not know. This is what the Qur'an says about contradictions between two scriptures-- the scripture that came later overrides the first scripture written (meaning God changes or is not perfect and needs to correct himself). Mohammed lost both parents, his dad died days before he was born, his mom at the age of six. Later after loosing his grandfather he lived with an uncle. He traveled all over with his uncle thus picking up different belief systems. In his mid twenties he married a woman almost 20 yrs his senior. He could not read or write. The Qur'an is his reciting of revelations given to him (the first of which he thought he was possessed by demons but his wife convinced him otherwise). He never claimed to be divine. He never preformed miracles. He beheaded hundreds of Christians and was known for raping women and children. The negative, violent verses of the Qur'an (that people want us to ignore) were actually written after the peaceful verses thus negating the peaceful verses. The peaceful verses don't add up anyway if you look at the book as a whole and the life of Mohammed (the last and greatest profit from God).
A Christian martyrs say "I will die for what I believe".
A Muslim martyr says; "you will die for what I believe"
Believer in the TRUTH
Sunday, September 19, 2010
Muslims Are Extremists - Are Christians Extremists?
An excellent article that shows this blog entry title is obviously wrong.
A 9/11 Widow Balances Her Family, a Job and Islam - NYTimes.com
Islam has a problem with extremists - a statement of the obvious. But most Muslims are devout people who live peaceful, good lives. Good thing too since millions live around us. They ignore the extremist passages in the Koran or creatively explain them away. Just as many Christians ignore or explain away extremist language in the Bible. See the early blog post about the slavery passages in the old testament and your unconvincing response (I understood your response to be that the bible says more or less that slavery is okay as long as we treat them kindly).
Extremists focus on the extremist language in their holy book to justify their acts. Should all Muslims be condemned for the acts of Islamic extremists? The language in their book certainly supports what they do. However Christians should consider this carefully before they go down this path. After all, Christianity could be blamed for the acts of Christian extremists - like the Ku Klux Klan. Who, after all, used the Cross as a very powerful symbol. The KKK (and modern day white supremacists) considered themselves the only true Christians - just as Islamic extremists believe they are the only true Muslims. (A side note - why didn't southern white Christian churches publicly condemn the acts of the KKK? Probably because the KKK were members of local churches.)
It is absurd to blame Christianity for the acts of the KKK - it is also absurd the blame all Muslims for the acts of the extremists on 9/11. Both faiths have holy books that are fully of extremist language - and 99% of followers (thank goodness) of both faiths ignore or explain away the extremist language. Just as you thankfully did.
A 9/11 Widow Balances Her Family, a Job and Islam - NYTimes.com
Islam has a problem with extremists - a statement of the obvious. But most Muslims are devout people who live peaceful, good lives. Good thing too since millions live around us. They ignore the extremist passages in the Koran or creatively explain them away. Just as many Christians ignore or explain away extremist language in the Bible. See the early blog post about the slavery passages in the old testament and your unconvincing response (I understood your response to be that the bible says more or less that slavery is okay as long as we treat them kindly).
Extremists focus on the extremist language in their holy book to justify their acts. Should all Muslims be condemned for the acts of Islamic extremists? The language in their book certainly supports what they do. However Christians should consider this carefully before they go down this path. After all, Christianity could be blamed for the acts of Christian extremists - like the Ku Klux Klan. Who, after all, used the Cross as a very powerful symbol. The KKK (and modern day white supremacists) considered themselves the only true Christians - just as Islamic extremists believe they are the only true Muslims. (A side note - why didn't southern white Christian churches publicly condemn the acts of the KKK? Probably because the KKK were members of local churches.)
It is absurd to blame Christianity for the acts of the KKK - it is also absurd the blame all Muslims for the acts of the extremists on 9/11. Both faiths have holy books that are fully of extremist language - and 99% of followers (thank goodness) of both faiths ignore or explain away the extremist language. Just as you thankfully did.
Wednesday, September 15, 2010
Psalms 91:1, God's emergency number
I guess the first thing that came to my mind when I read the article are the verses in Matthew and Luke Ch. 4 when Jesus says to satan "You shall not tempt the LORD your God" Oddly enough satan quotes from Psalm 91 the same Psalm the Chaplin used (from the article). Satan is trying to get Jesus to throw Himself off the pinnacle of the temple and said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down, for it is written: 'He shall give His angels charge over you. In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.'" Jesus basically tells satan, forget it. I don't need to do something foolish like that to prove My authority in God.
In other words, you don't do something stupid under the guise that God will protect you. I don't know this guys motivation, nor do I know the whole story but it seems to me he is tempting the LORD God by taking unnecessary risks and putting others in harms way. With that being said I love Psalms 91 and quote/pray/claim it all the time. It is one of my favorite Psalms and is the only passage in the Bible where every protection from the harms of this world are listed. When I say I claim it, what I mean is, I believe there is protection for God's people when we believe and claim His promises. He will take care of His own but there are conditions to that protection.
Psalm 91:1 (911 just happens to be our distress call) starts with "He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High shall abide in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the LORD, 'He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust.'" You must dwell with Him, meaning abide, live in Him (relationship) and proclaim your trust in Him.
Later in the Psalm there is another condition vs. 9 "Because you have made the LORD, who is my refuge, Even the Most High, your dwelling place, No evil shall befall you."
and then in vs. 14 "Because he has set his love upon Me, therefore I will deliver him". This protection is for those who love God, really love God.
I can't tell you how God works as far as why one person dies and not another. There is not a formula to figuring Him out; He's not a vending machine---say you believe, go to church, maybe read a few verses a week and your covered. How hockey would that be. I can tell you there are patterns to follow from the Bible, and in our world, of people who have learned to dwell in Him. I would love to share with the atheist soldier the many stories of Godly generals and soldiers who saw God's hand at work through their prayers and trust in HIM. I cringe to think of where this country would be without all the Godly praying people who have gone before us. We are slowly getting a taste of this as this country as a whole relies less and less on God and more on the wisdom of man.
Paul and others in the Bible said many times--following Christ would not be easy. If I signed up because I thought I would somehow avoid hardship, I didn't read the manual very well. Christ Himself asked if He could be spared from torture and death. In Matthew 26:39 Jesus prayed "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will." He is our ultimate example. You come to a place in your walk with Him that you know He knows best and you trust Him with your very life. A favorite verse of mine is Philippians 1:21 where Paul says "For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain." We win either way. Pretty much all the disciples lost their lives as martyrs but look at the many times and ways God miraculously spared them, performed miracles through them, saved souls through their witnessing. I can only hope my life will count as much.
In other words, you don't do something stupid under the guise that God will protect you. I don't know this guys motivation, nor do I know the whole story but it seems to me he is tempting the LORD God by taking unnecessary risks and putting others in harms way. With that being said I love Psalms 91 and quote/pray/claim it all the time. It is one of my favorite Psalms and is the only passage in the Bible where every protection from the harms of this world are listed. When I say I claim it, what I mean is, I believe there is protection for God's people when we believe and claim His promises. He will take care of His own but there are conditions to that protection.
Psalm 91:1 (911 just happens to be our distress call) starts with "He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High shall abide in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the LORD, 'He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust.'" You must dwell with Him, meaning abide, live in Him (relationship) and proclaim your trust in Him.
Later in the Psalm there is another condition vs. 9 "Because you have made the LORD, who is my refuge, Even the Most High, your dwelling place, No evil shall befall you."
and then in vs. 14 "Because he has set his love upon Me, therefore I will deliver him". This protection is for those who love God, really love God.
I can't tell you how God works as far as why one person dies and not another. There is not a formula to figuring Him out; He's not a vending machine---say you believe, go to church, maybe read a few verses a week and your covered. How hockey would that be. I can tell you there are patterns to follow from the Bible, and in our world, of people who have learned to dwell in Him. I would love to share with the atheist soldier the many stories of Godly generals and soldiers who saw God's hand at work through their prayers and trust in HIM. I cringe to think of where this country would be without all the Godly praying people who have gone before us. We are slowly getting a taste of this as this country as a whole relies less and less on God and more on the wisdom of man.
Paul and others in the Bible said many times--following Christ would not be easy. If I signed up because I thought I would somehow avoid hardship, I didn't read the manual very well. Christ Himself asked if He could be spared from torture and death. In Matthew 26:39 Jesus prayed "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will." He is our ultimate example. You come to a place in your walk with Him that you know He knows best and you trust Him with your very life. A favorite verse of mine is Philippians 1:21 where Paul says "For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain." We win either way. Pretty much all the disciples lost their lives as martyrs but look at the many times and ways God miraculously spared them, performed miracles through them, saved souls through their witnessing. I can only hope my life will count as much.
Sunday, September 12, 2010
This Chaplain Is Protected By God—and by an Atheist--at War - WSJ.com
I have been remiss in my posts recently. Busy trying to enjoy the last of summer. I just read this article and found it fascinating and disturbing and was anxious to post it to this blog. I'll respond to your last post later.
I find this story disturbing - and perhaps infuriating is not too strong a word. Through his faith this chaplain needlessly endangers the life of the soldier assigned to protect him. The Chaplain takes foolish and unnecessary risks - exposing himself to enemy fire when he could take cover - because he believes his god will protect him. But by doing so he recklessly risks the life of the soldier assigned to protect him. Another example of faith doing more harm than good. This Chaplain is a dangerous fool - he may get RP Specialist Chute killed because of his faith. Clearly god doesn't protect all his followers since lots of devote Christian US soldiers have come home dead.
This Chaplain doesn't deserve RP Specialist Chute's protection. The Chaplain has a moral obligation to not endanger soldiers lives in reckless unnecessary ways.
Thursday, August 5, 2010
Neanderthal man and Christ
OK, lets talk about the Neanderthal man. All the current (updated) evidence points to the fact that the Neanderthal man was completely human. Although slight differences have been found in appearance etc, the artist rendition of the hunched over ape like caveman is completely false. Many bones have been found in caves due to burial practices and the fact that caves were widely used as temporary residences for various reasons all through out our history. Many Bible verses talk of living in caves. Also evidence now points to the fact they walked upright, had the same level of intelligence and are even found in the burial sites with other humans---showing they were accepted, and a part of human families.
Anyway the assumption that the Neanderthal man is not human and is somehow the link between ape and man is false. I believe they came after the flood and are descendants of Noah.
Your other question concerning the lives of those who lived before Jesus is really good and I wondered that at one time about this as well. If Jesus claims to be the only way then what about all those who didn't get the chance to believe in Him. The verses in the Bible that best answer this question are in John 5, "And I assure you that the time is coming, in fact it is here, when the dead will hear My voice--the voice of the Son of God. And those who listen will live. The Father has life in Himself, and He has granted His Son to have life in Himself. And He has given Him authority to judge all mankind because He is the Son of Man. Don't be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God's Son, and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to judgment".
From the world's point of view Christ entered the picture some 2000 years ago but He has always been here. He was there when God created the heavens and the earth and He is mentioned all through out the Bible. He has always been God's plan to save this world. The sacrifice He made covers from the beginning of creation to the end. All who hear His voice and believe upon His name shall be saved!
Believer in the Truth
Anyway the assumption that the Neanderthal man is not human and is somehow the link between ape and man is false. I believe they came after the flood and are descendants of Noah.
Your other question concerning the lives of those who lived before Jesus is really good and I wondered that at one time about this as well. If Jesus claims to be the only way then what about all those who didn't get the chance to believe in Him. The verses in the Bible that best answer this question are in John 5, "And I assure you that the time is coming, in fact it is here, when the dead will hear My voice--the voice of the Son of God. And those who listen will live. The Father has life in Himself, and He has granted His Son to have life in Himself. And He has given Him authority to judge all mankind because He is the Son of Man. Don't be so surprised! Indeed, the time is coming when all the dead in their graves will hear the voice of God's Son, and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to judgment".
From the world's point of view Christ entered the picture some 2000 years ago but He has always been here. He was there when God created the heavens and the earth and He is mentioned all through out the Bible. He has always been God's plan to save this world. The sacrifice He made covers from the beginning of creation to the end. All who hear His voice and believe upon His name shall be saved!
Believer in the Truth
Friday, July 30, 2010
A Dead End?
One more question before we leave for vacation. Yay!
If God had a plan and everything we see is the result of his perfect plan, what of Neanderthal Man (& Woman)? Similar to my dinosaur question - was God just messin' around? Why did he create a humanoid who evolved for tens of thousand of years only to let him dead end in extinction? Odd plan. I'm reminded of the Gary Larson cartoon showing God pulling Earth out of his oven and thinking, "I've got a feeling this thing is half baked".
And what of the millions of people who lived and died before Christ declared himself a savior? After all, Christ only appeared 2000 years ago and modern humans have been around for a million years roughly. Did they automatically go to Hell since they hadn't accepted Christ - who God hadn't gotten around to sending down to save them?
Sorry, that was two questions.
If God had a plan and everything we see is the result of his perfect plan, what of Neanderthal Man (& Woman)? Similar to my dinosaur question - was God just messin' around? Why did he create a humanoid who evolved for tens of thousand of years only to let him dead end in extinction? Odd plan. I'm reminded of the Gary Larson cartoon showing God pulling Earth out of his oven and thinking, "I've got a feeling this thing is half baked".
And what of the millions of people who lived and died before Christ declared himself a savior? After all, Christ only appeared 2000 years ago and modern humans have been around for a million years roughly. Did they automatically go to Hell since they hadn't accepted Christ - who God hadn't gotten around to sending down to save them?
Sorry, that was two questions.
Being good isn't good enough
Hi David,
You are right about my use of the Bible to support myself. It is God's Word and the only Word I can completely stand upon in this world. It is where I turn for truth, wisdom, knowledge, comfort, joy. I'm not sure where one turns for life's answers without it. Yes I have read several other religious books, although I can't say all the way through, I have read large sections. I know you say all religions claim their book as truth but just as I mentioned with Jesus Christ, no book can hold a candle to the Bible. There is no other authority on earth that has the wisdom of the Bible nor does any religious book compare as far as historical reliability, accuracy, prophesies, content. It has not had to change to be politically, scientifically or historically correct as many have had to do. People through the ages have tried to eliminate it yet the Bible remains the most sold, popular, circulated, smuggled, written about, talked about book in the world.
It is too bad that all Christians can't be on the same page but as I have said before Christianity is an abused word; Many people claim to be Christians who are not following Christ nor do they know Him. Also, we are all flawed individuals that allow pride, selfishness, greed, etc, to get in the way. As Christ followers, if we could get the first (and 2nd) and greatest commandment down "Love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself" all our differences would melt away and we would be much more attractive to the world!!
To answer your question about Catholic babies going to hell. I don't believe in baby baptism but also I don't believe baptism is what saves a person. No where in the Bible does it say to baptize babies, this is a tradition started by the Catholic church. Nor does the Bible say baptism is what saves you. Over and over again the Bible says it is our faith in Christ that saves us ---Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." I think of the thief on the cross next to Jesus who said "Lord remember me when You come into Your Kingdom." And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." It wasn't any physical act that saved this man just his acknowledgement of Jesus as coming from above(GOD). I don't think Jesus was thinking about whether this man had been baptized as a baby or not or whatever else he did in life (good or bad) because up until this point, this thief did not believe in Christ. I do however HIGHLY believe in baptism as an act of obedience that reflects a decision already made and as a picture of what has happened to us once we believed---- "our sins have been washed away and we have been made new". Olivia's description is the best I've heard "It is like sign language to show God how much we love Him".
I want to address one more question you asked--- how can there be good people (like yourself) but they do not believe? We all have the capacity to do good or evil. We were all created to do good but we have freewill and can choose. This is true of believers and non-believers. It is not our good works that saves us or keeps us from sinning. And no matter how good you think you are, we are all sinners in need of a Savior. We are only free from the penalty of sin by accepting Jesus as our LORD and Savior; which involves recognizing our sin, repenting of our sin, and believing that He died for us and rose again. And if we truly believe this, it should lead us into a life of following Him with our whole hearts; Not out of obligation but out of love and awe of Him. It doesn't mean we are suddenly perfect(obviously). But we are a new creation in Christ. Sin still exist in our lives but now we are no longer a slave to sin. The Holy Spirit is our guide, leading us and enabling us to change wrong behaviors, attitudes, actions as we yield to Him and seek His help. Jesus teaches his disciples to pray--- "lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil". Jesus knew we would need help making right choices. I guess as believers we all have a choice to waste this gift we have been given on ourselves but Christ challenges us to live for Him.
The book of Romans explains it best "What then? shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?.....But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our LORD."
Have a great trip!
Believer in the Truth
You are right about my use of the Bible to support myself. It is God's Word and the only Word I can completely stand upon in this world. It is where I turn for truth, wisdom, knowledge, comfort, joy. I'm not sure where one turns for life's answers without it. Yes I have read several other religious books, although I can't say all the way through, I have read large sections. I know you say all religions claim their book as truth but just as I mentioned with Jesus Christ, no book can hold a candle to the Bible. There is no other authority on earth that has the wisdom of the Bible nor does any religious book compare as far as historical reliability, accuracy, prophesies, content. It has not had to change to be politically, scientifically or historically correct as many have had to do. People through the ages have tried to eliminate it yet the Bible remains the most sold, popular, circulated, smuggled, written about, talked about book in the world.
It is too bad that all Christians can't be on the same page but as I have said before Christianity is an abused word; Many people claim to be Christians who are not following Christ nor do they know Him. Also, we are all flawed individuals that allow pride, selfishness, greed, etc, to get in the way. As Christ followers, if we could get the first (and 2nd) and greatest commandment down "Love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself" all our differences would melt away and we would be much more attractive to the world!!
To answer your question about Catholic babies going to hell. I don't believe in baby baptism but also I don't believe baptism is what saves a person. No where in the Bible does it say to baptize babies, this is a tradition started by the Catholic church. Nor does the Bible say baptism is what saves you. Over and over again the Bible says it is our faith in Christ that saves us ---Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." I think of the thief on the cross next to Jesus who said "Lord remember me when You come into Your Kingdom." And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." It wasn't any physical act that saved this man just his acknowledgement of Jesus as coming from above(GOD). I don't think Jesus was thinking about whether this man had been baptized as a baby or not or whatever else he did in life (good or bad) because up until this point, this thief did not believe in Christ. I do however HIGHLY believe in baptism as an act of obedience that reflects a decision already made and as a picture of what has happened to us once we believed---- "our sins have been washed away and we have been made new". Olivia's description is the best I've heard "It is like sign language to show God how much we love Him".
I want to address one more question you asked--- how can there be good people (like yourself) but they do not believe? We all have the capacity to do good or evil. We were all created to do good but we have freewill and can choose. This is true of believers and non-believers. It is not our good works that saves us or keeps us from sinning. And no matter how good you think you are, we are all sinners in need of a Savior. We are only free from the penalty of sin by accepting Jesus as our LORD and Savior; which involves recognizing our sin, repenting of our sin, and believing that He died for us and rose again. And if we truly believe this, it should lead us into a life of following Him with our whole hearts; Not out of obligation but out of love and awe of Him. It doesn't mean we are suddenly perfect(obviously). But we are a new creation in Christ. Sin still exist in our lives but now we are no longer a slave to sin. The Holy Spirit is our guide, leading us and enabling us to change wrong behaviors, attitudes, actions as we yield to Him and seek His help. Jesus teaches his disciples to pray--- "lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil". Jesus knew we would need help making right choices. I guess as believers we all have a choice to waste this gift we have been given on ourselves but Christ challenges us to live for Him.
The book of Romans explains it best "What then? shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?.....But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our LORD."
Have a great trip!
Believer in the Truth
Thursday, July 29, 2010
An Evangelical Christian I Admire
Interesting how you quote the Bible to prove the Bible. Seems like circular reasoning to me. {:)
Have you read the Koran? Or other holy books? I haven't but I bet their fervent believers make similar claims - warn of false prophets, etc. You frame our discussion as Christianity vs. non-believers when in reality all people of other faiths (a billion or so) and many Christians would disagree with many of your points. As I've said b/f, get all Christians on the same page and then work on non-believers. It is the many many disagreements among Christians that fuels many non-believers. Like Pentecostals who use snakes in their worship and speak in tongues. Just plain weird.
Do you think Catholics are going to Hell since they practice baptism at birth rather than when a person is older and can understand the idea of accepting Christ as their savior? How in the world can an infant do this? And if you don't believe they are going to Hell, why not?
Tonight I listened to a evangelical who I agreed with on many topics but I'm sure you would heatedly disagree with. Click on the link above and let me know what you think.
I believe claiming Satan as the instigator of evil is a cop out. People commit evil - we are all capable of it and I see no evidence of an evil supernatural power behind man's evil acts. I simply see people doing evil things. Cheating televangelists blame Satan for their transgressions - I despise this.
Studies have found that serial killers have one thing in common - a history of extreme child abuse at the hands of their parents (locked in closets for years, etc.) I don't see a supernatural evil being here - I see a person screwed up to a pathological degree who is a danger to society and must be locked up forever.
You close by saying I have no proof of my stance. You are right! But then I've never claimed that I had proof so alas, not much of a victory there. I'm more of an agnostic than an atheist.
A closing question for you - you clearly think I'm misguided but do you believe that I, David, am basically a good person? Am I an ethical person? A good husband? A good father? (Note I'm not saying perfect.) A good and trusted friend? If so, how is this possible if I don't believe?
Have you read the Koran? Or other holy books? I haven't but I bet their fervent believers make similar claims - warn of false prophets, etc. You frame our discussion as Christianity vs. non-believers when in reality all people of other faiths (a billion or so) and many Christians would disagree with many of your points. As I've said b/f, get all Christians on the same page and then work on non-believers. It is the many many disagreements among Christians that fuels many non-believers. Like Pentecostals who use snakes in their worship and speak in tongues. Just plain weird.
Do you think Catholics are going to Hell since they practice baptism at birth rather than when a person is older and can understand the idea of accepting Christ as their savior? How in the world can an infant do this? And if you don't believe they are going to Hell, why not?
Tonight I listened to a evangelical who I agreed with on many topics but I'm sure you would heatedly disagree with. Click on the link above and let me know what you think.
I believe claiming Satan as the instigator of evil is a cop out. People commit evil - we are all capable of it and I see no evidence of an evil supernatural power behind man's evil acts. I simply see people doing evil things. Cheating televangelists blame Satan for their transgressions - I despise this.
Studies have found that serial killers have one thing in common - a history of extreme child abuse at the hands of their parents (locked in closets for years, etc.) I don't see a supernatural evil being here - I see a person screwed up to a pathological degree who is a danger to society and must be locked up forever.
You close by saying I have no proof of my stance. You are right! But then I've never claimed that I had proof so alas, not much of a victory there. I'm more of an agnostic than an atheist.
A closing question for you - you clearly think I'm misguided but do you believe that I, David, am basically a good person? Am I an ethical person? A good husband? A good father? (Note I'm not saying perfect.) A good and trusted friend? If so, how is this possible if I don't believe?
Tuesday, July 27, 2010
False prophets
David, You are right when you say any religion can claim signs and wonders to persuade others into believing or supporting their own belief system. Mathew 24:24&25 says--"For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand." God is warning us "BEWARE this will happen, don't let it surprise you".
The spiritual world you deny exists is both good and evil. Satan is at work right along with Christ causing a darkness today that is hard to ignore. The Bible even says satan disguises himself as an angel of light. He is ready to deceive as many as possible with his limited power. I am also reminded of Moses and his dealings with Pharaoh---When Aaron (Moses brother) threw his staff down and it turned into a serpent to show Pharaoh the strength of God, Pharaoh called all his wise men and sorcerers and they also threw down their rods and they became serpents. But Moses rod swallowed up their rods!!!!
As I have mentioned before no other religion or prophet can hold a candle to JESUS. No other prophet has the record of miracles to back him up (which have extraordinary evidence). No other prophet is as famous. No other prophet has the prophesies to back him up. No other prophet claimed to be God Himself. No other religion has a group of people that have been more persecuted, killed, hated, yet they survive (rather odd for such a small, seemingly insignificant people group; Someone views them as a threat!!). Every other religion is about works or achievement to gain access or acceptance from God but God's Word says "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast"(Ephesians 2:8). Only in Christianity does God accept us just as we are and extends a FREE gift of salvation---John 3:16 "whosoever believes in me shall not perish but have everlasting life".
You said "If one faith "proved" it was correct by now surly the world would reflect this." I think the above statements are more than enough to reflect the Truth. Numbers or popularity do not equal truth.
I have to wonder where you put your confidence. You have no more "proof" of what you believe than you say I do. Just as you said to me "We quickly grasp stories and facts that support our beliefs - and quickly reject those that do not".
I would be very sure of my beliefs before I rejected my Creator.
Believer in the Truth
The spiritual world you deny exists is both good and evil. Satan is at work right along with Christ causing a darkness today that is hard to ignore. The Bible even says satan disguises himself as an angel of light. He is ready to deceive as many as possible with his limited power. I am also reminded of Moses and his dealings with Pharaoh---When Aaron (Moses brother) threw his staff down and it turned into a serpent to show Pharaoh the strength of God, Pharaoh called all his wise men and sorcerers and they also threw down their rods and they became serpents. But Moses rod swallowed up their rods!!!!
As I have mentioned before no other religion or prophet can hold a candle to JESUS. No other prophet has the record of miracles to back him up (which have extraordinary evidence). No other prophet is as famous. No other prophet has the prophesies to back him up. No other prophet claimed to be God Himself. No other religion has a group of people that have been more persecuted, killed, hated, yet they survive (rather odd for such a small, seemingly insignificant people group; Someone views them as a threat!!). Every other religion is about works or achievement to gain access or acceptance from God but God's Word says "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast"(Ephesians 2:8). Only in Christianity does God accept us just as we are and extends a FREE gift of salvation---John 3:16 "whosoever believes in me shall not perish but have everlasting life".
You said "If one faith "proved" it was correct by now surly the world would reflect this." I think the above statements are more than enough to reflect the Truth. Numbers or popularity do not equal truth.
I have to wonder where you put your confidence. You have no more "proof" of what you believe than you say I do. Just as you said to me "We quickly grasp stories and facts that support our beliefs - and quickly reject those that do not".
I would be very sure of my beliefs before I rejected my Creator.
Believer in the Truth
Sunday, July 25, 2010
Miracles & Conversions
I have two points in your last post to address - miracles and conversions.
Miracles. Clearly the man you spoke to you believed in this miracle. Clearly you do as well. I wonder though if a Hindu told you a story of a miracle he had experienced that proved his faith would you believe him? Or a Muslim? I must be blunt - the answer to both is no. You believe this gentleman's story because it conforms and supports your existing belief system in a powerful way. We quickly grasp stories and facts that do this - and quickly reject those that do not. In a previous post I addressed the criteria I have for believing in a miracle so I won't belabor the point here. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof - what this fellow provided doesn't meet this standard for me. That it meets others standards is fine - but it doesn't meet mine.
Conversion. There are many atheists who have "found Jesus". Many many many. Annnnnd.....there are many believers who are now atheists. Many many many. There are many Hindus who have become Christians and vise versa. So what is the point? We could exchange these testimonials until the sun (not Son) dies and it wouldn't prove anything. If one faith "proved" it was correct by now surly the world would reflect this - there wouldn't be a billion Muslims who are just as confident that you are wrong and they are right. And several hundred million Hindus. And a lot (tens of millions? - no idea) of Jews.
If it is any consolation, believers in other faiths agree with you about one issue - by rejecting all gods I am even more wrong than you. {;>)
Miracles. Clearly the man you spoke to you believed in this miracle. Clearly you do as well. I wonder though if a Hindu told you a story of a miracle he had experienced that proved his faith would you believe him? Or a Muslim? I must be blunt - the answer to both is no. You believe this gentleman's story because it conforms and supports your existing belief system in a powerful way. We quickly grasp stories and facts that do this - and quickly reject those that do not. In a previous post I addressed the criteria I have for believing in a miracle so I won't belabor the point here. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof - what this fellow provided doesn't meet this standard for me. That it meets others standards is fine - but it doesn't meet mine.
Conversion. There are many atheists who have "found Jesus". Many many many. Annnnnd.....there are many believers who are now atheists. Many many many. There are many Hindus who have become Christians and vise versa. So what is the point? We could exchange these testimonials until the sun (not Son) dies and it wouldn't prove anything. If one faith "proved" it was correct by now surly the world would reflect this - there wouldn't be a billion Muslims who are just as confident that you are wrong and they are right. And several hundred million Hindus. And a lot (tens of millions? - no idea) of Jews.
If it is any consolation, believers in other faiths agree with you about one issue - by rejecting all gods I am even more wrong than you. {;>)
Friday, July 16, 2010
Hi David,
Sorry to wait so long to start up again. With summer and playing catch-up after Rwanda, I have been busy.
I'm not sure where to start so thought I would share a little about what I saw and experienced in Rwanda. The trip was intense and wonderful, gut-wrenching and powerful. God is working in amazing ways in Rwanda and I got to experience it first hand.
A verse that came to mind several times as I heard stories and toured genocide sites was Jeremiah 17:9---"The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways according to the fruit of his doings." What happened in Rwanda (neighbors, friends, and family members killing, raping, torturing each other) could easily happen here. Earlier in Jeremiah 17 God says "Cursed is the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, whose heart departs from the LORD...." When are hearts are not surrendered to the LORD we are capable of all kinds of evil.
What was especially hard to witness were the churches where people came for refuge only to be turned in by the priest of that church and massacred. Being religious does not mean you are following the LORD and that was never more evident to me than in Rwanda. It reminded me of Jesus and how it was the religious people(priests) who were responsible for His death. It seems nothing has changed.
Well, that was the bad---- but the good was the healing taking place. So many people we worked with (translators, drivers, pastors, teachers) had the most amazing stories of how God has transformed their lives. God spoke to people right out, appeared in visions and dreams and spoke through others to get their attention. Through God's love the people of Rwanda are able to forgive the most horrendous offenses and the nation is on the mend.
One man I spoke with I wish I had recorded. He was an atheist, John was his name. Said he wanted nothing to do with God. He had read the Koran, Bible, and pretty much every other well known religious book and said he could tell you all about each religion. He thought they were all bogus---man is in charge of his own destination. He is well educated, and extremely smart and said he used to say if I can't see it or touch it I don't believe it!! Well, his brother (whom I also met, Pastor Clement) had prayed for John for 7 years to accept Christ. One day someone John worked with (high up official) asked John if his brother (Pastor Clement) could come see his wife. This man's wife had been suffering for years with personality disorder and depression that was almost debilitating. He had tried everything from different medications to witch docs, etc. and now was even willing to have a Pastor pray over his wife. John thought "what do I have to loose, I am not the one endorsing God"; It will be his brother that looks the fool not him so he agreed. John came along and witnessed demons come out of this ladies body when Pastor Clement prayed for her. She was completely healed and accepted Jesus that night. He said he went home and got on his hands and knees and cried out to God. He finally realized the TRUTH and humbled himself before his God. He surrendered his life to Christ that night and immediately felt God's presence. He now is the father of 8 beautiful kids whom I had the pleasure of meeting and is passionate about sharing Jesus with whomever he meets. He now knows there is much more to life than living for yourself and this world. The spiritual world is REAL(good and evil)!!
I know this isn't a story about the genocide but so much of what he said reminded me of what I have heard you say so I wanted to share. There are many more incredible stories but I'll stop for now.
Believer in the TRUTH
Sorry to wait so long to start up again. With summer and playing catch-up after Rwanda, I have been busy.
I'm not sure where to start so thought I would share a little about what I saw and experienced in Rwanda. The trip was intense and wonderful, gut-wrenching and powerful. God is working in amazing ways in Rwanda and I got to experience it first hand.
A verse that came to mind several times as I heard stories and toured genocide sites was Jeremiah 17:9---"The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways according to the fruit of his doings." What happened in Rwanda (neighbors, friends, and family members killing, raping, torturing each other) could easily happen here. Earlier in Jeremiah 17 God says "Cursed is the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, whose heart departs from the LORD...." When are hearts are not surrendered to the LORD we are capable of all kinds of evil.
What was especially hard to witness were the churches where people came for refuge only to be turned in by the priest of that church and massacred. Being religious does not mean you are following the LORD and that was never more evident to me than in Rwanda. It reminded me of Jesus and how it was the religious people(priests) who were responsible for His death. It seems nothing has changed.
Well, that was the bad---- but the good was the healing taking place. So many people we worked with (translators, drivers, pastors, teachers) had the most amazing stories of how God has transformed their lives. God spoke to people right out, appeared in visions and dreams and spoke through others to get their attention. Through God's love the people of Rwanda are able to forgive the most horrendous offenses and the nation is on the mend.
One man I spoke with I wish I had recorded. He was an atheist, John was his name. Said he wanted nothing to do with God. He had read the Koran, Bible, and pretty much every other well known religious book and said he could tell you all about each religion. He thought they were all bogus---man is in charge of his own destination. He is well educated, and extremely smart and said he used to say if I can't see it or touch it I don't believe it!! Well, his brother (whom I also met, Pastor Clement) had prayed for John for 7 years to accept Christ. One day someone John worked with (high up official) asked John if his brother (Pastor Clement) could come see his wife. This man's wife had been suffering for years with personality disorder and depression that was almost debilitating. He had tried everything from different medications to witch docs, etc. and now was even willing to have a Pastor pray over his wife. John thought "what do I have to loose, I am not the one endorsing God"; It will be his brother that looks the fool not him so he agreed. John came along and witnessed demons come out of this ladies body when Pastor Clement prayed for her. She was completely healed and accepted Jesus that night. He said he went home and got on his hands and knees and cried out to God. He finally realized the TRUTH and humbled himself before his God. He surrendered his life to Christ that night and immediately felt God's presence. He now is the father of 8 beautiful kids whom I had the pleasure of meeting and is passionate about sharing Jesus with whomever he meets. He now knows there is much more to life than living for yourself and this world. The spiritual world is REAL(good and evil)!!
I know this isn't a story about the genocide but so much of what he said reminded me of what I have heard you say so I wanted to share. There are many more incredible stories but I'll stop for now.
Believer in the TRUTH
Saturday, May 29, 2010
Interview
I listened to the interview you posted TJ. Many atheists agree with this guy. I also agree that there are many kind generous people who are motivated to perform wonderful deeds through their faiths. Unfortunately, it is a mixed bag with all faiths - great evils are also inflicted on humanity through faith. More common though is simple hypocrisy (condemning gays while engaging in the gay life, advocating the sanctity of marriage while having an affair, etc.) Clearly the human condition involves imperfection in adherence to all faiths, philosophies, etc. No religion is all bad - but none are all good either. Generally it is the fundamentalists who drive me crazy.
Saturday, May 22, 2010
Actions should speak louder than words
Hi David,
You make a lot of valid points which I look forward to addressing but I am having a hard time keeping up. Again I ask that you be patient as I tackle each one. I guess I will put Adam and Eve on hold while I respond to your latest blog.
I certainly agree with you that we need more action on behalf of Christians. If every Christian stepped up and walked the walked---Oh what a world this would be. But I think you underscore the good done by Christianity. People have done harmful things in the name of Christianity but Christianity itself has had only positive effects. George Sarton, a historian of science, once said "The birth of Christianity changed forever the face of the Western World."
He was speaking about the much good Christians have done such as---The first hospitals were started under Christian influence. Blind, deaf, and mentally ill facilities were also started under Christianity. The Red Cross, Good will, and Salvation Army were founded by rock solid Christians; In fact the idea of charity arose out of Christianity. The abolition of slavery, the value and dignity of human life, the freedom of speech, the freedom and dignity of woman's rights all came from Christian values.
True Christian charity and effective Christian action come from a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ---a Christ-centered transformation of the heart.
It is the failure to distinguish between the Christian and those supposedly representing Christianity that so often gets most of the attention.
As far as sharing Jesus to people as well as lending a helping hand, what good is it to give someone food etc. but ignore the more important issues of the soul. Jesus said in the sermon on the mount "Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." It is usually the downcast and poor who most recognize and accept their need of a Savior.
When I went to India, I started to understand this verse. People were hungry not just for physical food but for soul food. They realized their need for something beyond the physical satisfaction. After returning to the states so many people said "I bet you wanted to bring those children home with you". Actually, that was not what was on my mind...I look around this country and all I see is kids and adults inundated with STUFF. We are so full of materialism we don't realize how naked and poor we really are. People here have the same need as the people in India but we are too stuffed to see what we really need. Isaiah says "Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, eat what is good, And let your soul delight itself in abundance. Incline your ear, and come to Me. Hear, and your soul shall live!"
Hypocrisy is believing there is a heaven and hell and then just choosing to address people's physical needs.
With all that said... I too wish actions spoke louder than words more often.
This will probably be my last blog for awhile as I am leaving for Rwanda and won't be back until June 12th.
Believer in Truth
You make a lot of valid points which I look forward to addressing but I am having a hard time keeping up. Again I ask that you be patient as I tackle each one. I guess I will put Adam and Eve on hold while I respond to your latest blog.
I certainly agree with you that we need more action on behalf of Christians. If every Christian stepped up and walked the walked---Oh what a world this would be. But I think you underscore the good done by Christianity. People have done harmful things in the name of Christianity but Christianity itself has had only positive effects. George Sarton, a historian of science, once said "The birth of Christianity changed forever the face of the Western World."
He was speaking about the much good Christians have done such as---The first hospitals were started under Christian influence. Blind, deaf, and mentally ill facilities were also started under Christianity. The Red Cross, Good will, and Salvation Army were founded by rock solid Christians; In fact the idea of charity arose out of Christianity. The abolition of slavery, the value and dignity of human life, the freedom of speech, the freedom and dignity of woman's rights all came from Christian values.
True Christian charity and effective Christian action come from a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ---a Christ-centered transformation of the heart.
It is the failure to distinguish between the Christian and those supposedly representing Christianity that so often gets most of the attention.
As far as sharing Jesus to people as well as lending a helping hand, what good is it to give someone food etc. but ignore the more important issues of the soul. Jesus said in the sermon on the mount "Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." It is usually the downcast and poor who most recognize and accept their need of a Savior.
When I went to India, I started to understand this verse. People were hungry not just for physical food but for soul food. They realized their need for something beyond the physical satisfaction. After returning to the states so many people said "I bet you wanted to bring those children home with you". Actually, that was not what was on my mind...I look around this country and all I see is kids and adults inundated with STUFF. We are so full of materialism we don't realize how naked and poor we really are. People here have the same need as the people in India but we are too stuffed to see what we really need. Isaiah says "Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, eat what is good, And let your soul delight itself in abundance. Incline your ear, and come to Me. Hear, and your soul shall live!"
Hypocrisy is believing there is a heaven and hell and then just choosing to address people's physical needs.
With all that said... I too wish actions spoke louder than words more often.
This will probably be my last blog for awhile as I am leaving for Rwanda and won't be back until June 12th.
Believer in Truth
A Priest Doing the Lords Work
I haven't read your post yet but will read and respond this weekend.
I'm starting a new book today - Tattoos on the Heart: The Power of Boundless Compassion. The author is a Jesuit priest who has committed his life to help gang members in the LA barrios leave gangs and train them to become productive members of society. (I just finished this book in case you are curious.) I am very impressed by people like this who dedicate their lives to work with the poor and less fortunate. If you cut from the New Testament all the words Jesus said about helping the poor there wouldn't be much left. Working with criminals to turn them to productive members of society is the highest form of this work. It seems to me that 99% of this priests work involves saving people from poverty and crime rather than hell. Perhaps this is because they are living in hell so preaching to them to accept Jesus to avoid hell would be silly and naive. His acts speak much loader than any words could. This man should be sainted by his church long before John Paul II.
I've read in the Gresham Outlook about a local minister who works to feed the poor. He also greatly impresses me. His church was not a beautiful building but instead wherever the poor could be found. He said (paraphrasing here) that feeding and helping the poor was his primary concern and converting them secondary (I assume a close 2nd). This differs I think from Jesus' approach - he talked endlessly about helping the poor but saving them from going to hell seemed to be his primary concern - as it does for most Christians. I don't remember this ministers name but perhaps you do. There are many many examples of all religions (even Islam) motivating people to commit themselves to selfless acts of courage and generosity. Faith is a great benefit to mankind in these cases. (And this is where I disagree with the more strident atheists that religion is always bad.) If only this were the case more often - I would even take 50% of the time. Sadly, it seems to be pretty rare. If is wasn't, food pantrys and soup kitchens would never be short of food. So often those that preach the loudest and judge most harshly are often the biggest hypocrites.
This was going to be a short post to announce my new book but you know me.....
I'm starting a new book today - Tattoos on the Heart: The Power of Boundless Compassion. The author is a Jesuit priest who has committed his life to help gang members in the LA barrios leave gangs and train them to become productive members of society. (I just finished this book in case you are curious.) I am very impressed by people like this who dedicate their lives to work with the poor and less fortunate. If you cut from the New Testament all the words Jesus said about helping the poor there wouldn't be much left. Working with criminals to turn them to productive members of society is the highest form of this work. It seems to me that 99% of this priests work involves saving people from poverty and crime rather than hell. Perhaps this is because they are living in hell so preaching to them to accept Jesus to avoid hell would be silly and naive. His acts speak much loader than any words could. This man should be sainted by his church long before John Paul II.
I've read in the Gresham Outlook about a local minister who works to feed the poor. He also greatly impresses me. His church was not a beautiful building but instead wherever the poor could be found. He said (paraphrasing here) that feeding and helping the poor was his primary concern and converting them secondary (I assume a close 2nd). This differs I think from Jesus' approach - he talked endlessly about helping the poor but saving them from going to hell seemed to be his primary concern - as it does for most Christians. I don't remember this ministers name but perhaps you do. There are many many examples of all religions (even Islam) motivating people to commit themselves to selfless acts of courage and generosity. Faith is a great benefit to mankind in these cases. (And this is where I disagree with the more strident atheists that religion is always bad.) If only this were the case more often - I would even take 50% of the time. Sadly, it seems to be pretty rare. If is wasn't, food pantrys and soup kitchens would never be short of food. So often those that preach the loudest and judge most harshly are often the biggest hypocrites.
This was going to be a short post to announce my new book but you know me.....
Friday, May 21, 2010
I will let God be the Judge
David,
You are right---Judgement is for God and I am thankful for this. God is the one who searches every heart and knows the intent of each person. But being a witness to the Truth is not judging another; it is simply showing others the way. Jesus came to be a witness to the Truth and as His followers we are to do the same. It is my joy and privilege to share Him with others. When you experience a relationship with Jesus Christ nothing else in life compares. You won't be able to keep it to yourself either.
Jeremiah says "If I say I'll never mention the LORD or speak in His name, His Word burns in my heart like a fire. It's like a fire in my bones! I am weary of holding it in." I so understand this!!
I can see why you think all religions say their books are correct and are from God but that doesn't mean one isn't real. There is counterfeit money but that doesn't negate the real stuff. Actually I think the fact that there are so many religions trying to point the way to eternal life only supports the argument for God and heaven. We were made with a desire to know our Maker but too many of us want to make Him in our own image (create our own God, on our terms) not realizing we were made in HIS image. We must come to Him on His terms not ours.
"Now this is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3
When you read this verse, His terms seem a little easy compared to all other religions. The Bible is the only religious book that shows it is not about man working or earning his way to heaven, nirvana (or becoming a god); It is about what God did for man so that we would be able to have a relationship with Him again(sacrificed His Son).
Those verses in Deuteronomy that you mentioned, show a God who is jealous for us. It is hard to believe but His love for us is deeper and greater than even ours for a spouse or a child. He is expressing the outcome of someone who is trying to take one of His own away. I think you would be willing to kill if someone was taking your child from you. The Old Testament is crammed full of verses of His unfailing love, His faithfulness, His trustworthiness...The same God is in the Old Testament as in the New Testament(don't forget Revelation).
God will not force us to choose Him (That is not love); In Isaiah 30, it says "But the LORD waits for you to come to Him so He can show you His love and compassion". Isaiah also says "The earth suffers for the sins of its people, for they have twisted the instructions of God, violated His laws, and broken His everlasting covenant. Therefore a curse consumes the earth and its people".
One more thought about the Bible. Can you say this about any prophet of those other books---
"He was born in an obscure village, the child of a peasant woman. He grew up in still another village, where he worked in a carpenter shop until he was thirty. Then for three years he was an itinerant preacher.
He never wrote a book.
He never held an office.
He never had a family or owned a house.
He didn't go to college.
He never traveled 200 miles from the place where he was born.
He did none of these things one usually associates with greatness.
He had no credentials but himself.
He was only 33 when public opinion turned against him. His friends ran away. He was turned over to his enemies and went through the mockery of a trial. He was nailed to a cross between two thieves.
Buried in a borrowed grave.
Nineteen centuries have come and gone, and today he is still the central figure of the human race, the leader of mankind's progress.
All the armies that ever marched, all the navies that ever sailed, all the parliaments that ever sat, all the kings that ever reigned, put together, have not affected the life of man on earth as much as this ONE SOLITARY LIFE." Author Unknown
Believer in Truth
You are right---Judgement is for God and I am thankful for this. God is the one who searches every heart and knows the intent of each person. But being a witness to the Truth is not judging another; it is simply showing others the way. Jesus came to be a witness to the Truth and as His followers we are to do the same. It is my joy and privilege to share Him with others. When you experience a relationship with Jesus Christ nothing else in life compares. You won't be able to keep it to yourself either.
Jeremiah says "If I say I'll never mention the LORD or speak in His name, His Word burns in my heart like a fire. It's like a fire in my bones! I am weary of holding it in." I so understand this!!
I can see why you think all religions say their books are correct and are from God but that doesn't mean one isn't real. There is counterfeit money but that doesn't negate the real stuff. Actually I think the fact that there are so many religions trying to point the way to eternal life only supports the argument for God and heaven. We were made with a desire to know our Maker but too many of us want to make Him in our own image (create our own God, on our terms) not realizing we were made in HIS image. We must come to Him on His terms not ours.
"Now this is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3
When you read this verse, His terms seem a little easy compared to all other religions. The Bible is the only religious book that shows it is not about man working or earning his way to heaven, nirvana (or becoming a god); It is about what God did for man so that we would be able to have a relationship with Him again(sacrificed His Son).
Those verses in Deuteronomy that you mentioned, show a God who is jealous for us. It is hard to believe but His love for us is deeper and greater than even ours for a spouse or a child. He is expressing the outcome of someone who is trying to take one of His own away. I think you would be willing to kill if someone was taking your child from you. The Old Testament is crammed full of verses of His unfailing love, His faithfulness, His trustworthiness...The same God is in the Old Testament as in the New Testament(don't forget Revelation).
God will not force us to choose Him (That is not love); In Isaiah 30, it says "But the LORD waits for you to come to Him so He can show you His love and compassion". Isaiah also says "The earth suffers for the sins of its people, for they have twisted the instructions of God, violated His laws, and broken His everlasting covenant. Therefore a curse consumes the earth and its people".
One more thought about the Bible. Can you say this about any prophet of those other books---
"He was born in an obscure village, the child of a peasant woman. He grew up in still another village, where he worked in a carpenter shop until he was thirty. Then for three years he was an itinerant preacher.
He never wrote a book.
He never held an office.
He never had a family or owned a house.
He didn't go to college.
He never traveled 200 miles from the place where he was born.
He did none of these things one usually associates with greatness.
He had no credentials but himself.
He was only 33 when public opinion turned against him. His friends ran away. He was turned over to his enemies and went through the mockery of a trial. He was nailed to a cross between two thieves.
Buried in a borrowed grave.
Nineteen centuries have come and gone, and today he is still the central figure of the human race, the leader of mankind's progress.
All the armies that ever marched, all the navies that ever sailed, all the parliaments that ever sat, all the kings that ever reigned, put together, have not affected the life of man on earth as much as this ONE SOLITARY LIFE." Author Unknown
Believer in Truth
Response, Response, Response
Hey, we agree on something! I also don't believe all religions can be correct. We differ on what that means - I don't think any are correct.
As I've posted before, I don't believe proof is necessary for a believer. Their belief is enough seems to me. One reason why I hold this opinion - the "proof" given strikes me as weak at best. Billions of Muslims will quote endlessly from their book to prove you are wrong - and it is a useless discussion in my mind since you both believe your proof. If you really believe in God let others be and let God sort it out when they kick the bucket. There is way too much judgement by believers that want to provide proof and as the bible says, "judge not lest you be judged". Few believers seem to live by that although progressive believers seem more inclined to do so.
The bible is perfect and is the inherent word of God? Even the largest Christian denomination (Catholic church) doesn't believe the the bible should be read as a literal work much less a work of science. And please explain why Deuteronomy 13:6, 8-15 is the inherent word of god. I have to believe that was written by a foolish man reflecting his ignorance. If it was written by a deity - or accurately reflects the deities word - that is no deity I would ever follow or love. I've never understood why good Christians don't cut the bible in half and throw away the old testament. How Jews base an entire religion on it I'll never fathom.
As I've posted before, I don't believe proof is necessary for a believer. Their belief is enough seems to me. One reason why I hold this opinion - the "proof" given strikes me as weak at best. Billions of Muslims will quote endlessly from their book to prove you are wrong - and it is a useless discussion in my mind since you both believe your proof. If you really believe in God let others be and let God sort it out when they kick the bucket. There is way too much judgement by believers that want to provide proof and as the bible says, "judge not lest you be judged". Few believers seem to live by that although progressive believers seem more inclined to do so.
The bible is perfect and is the inherent word of God? Even the largest Christian denomination (Catholic church) doesn't believe the the bible should be read as a literal work much less a work of science. And please explain why Deuteronomy 13:6, 8-15 is the inherent word of god. I have to believe that was written by a foolish man reflecting his ignorance. If it was written by a deity - or accurately reflects the deities word - that is no deity I would ever follow or love. I've never understood why good Christians don't cut the bible in half and throw away the old testament. How Jews base an entire religion on it I'll never fathom.
Thursday, May 20, 2010
I am sorry for putting words in your mouth. I was referring to an earlier comment concerning Jesus when you said----"Someone in the future reads the ancient writings and poof - they claim to be X". Jesus did claim to fulfill everyone one of the prophesies written about Him and He claimed to be God, so..... let ME use the word hoax. Jesus is a hoax, or He is a liar if this is not true. I'm not interested in trying to be politically correct. I don't want to bash another religion or argue with anyone I only want to get down to the bottom of all this (The TRUTH).
All religions can not be true. They all might have some truth in them but if they contradict each other then they can not all be true. For this reason, I want to know what I believe and why I believe. I agree with you that not all Christians feel the need (or are able)to prove their faith. I believe this is true for all religions. Sadly, the majority of people blindly follow others with no real reason to believe what they do. 1 Peter 3:15 says "always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear."
As I've mentioned before at some point our faith will be tested. Whether our faith is in a person, a false religion or false gods, materialism etc. It will be tested and then we will know if we have placed our faith correctly. I want to find out now if my faith is real. I don't want to be surprised later. I wouldn't sit in a chair that I didn't think would hold me up. Why would I believe in a God that I wasn't sure was real or that I could trust??
I know we seem stuck on this issue of proving "faith" but I am hoping you will take up the challenge and follow the evidence. If I wasn't so sure of what I believed the last thing I would do is want you to look at the evidence. One of my favorite verses in the Bible is Romans 12:2 "Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your MIND, that you may PROVE what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God."
I meant to address your other points but I fear I have gone on too long. I look forward to talking about Adam and Eve next time.
Believer in Truth
All religions can not be true. They all might have some truth in them but if they contradict each other then they can not all be true. For this reason, I want to know what I believe and why I believe. I agree with you that not all Christians feel the need (or are able)to prove their faith. I believe this is true for all religions. Sadly, the majority of people blindly follow others with no real reason to believe what they do. 1 Peter 3:15 says "always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear."
As I've mentioned before at some point our faith will be tested. Whether our faith is in a person, a false religion or false gods, materialism etc. It will be tested and then we will know if we have placed our faith correctly. I want to find out now if my faith is real. I don't want to be surprised later. I wouldn't sit in a chair that I didn't think would hold me up. Why would I believe in a God that I wasn't sure was real or that I could trust??
I know we seem stuck on this issue of proving "faith" but I am hoping you will take up the challenge and follow the evidence. If I wasn't so sure of what I believed the last thing I would do is want you to look at the evidence. One of my favorite verses in the Bible is Romans 12:2 "Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your MIND, that you may PROVE what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God."
I meant to address your other points but I fear I have gone on too long. I look forward to talking about Adam and Eve next time.
Believer in Truth
Wednesday, May 19, 2010
The Trinity
I find this video hilarious - I hope you don't find it offensive. Seems like it is tastefully done.
David
David
Original Sin
I never used the word hoax - that is your word and not mine. Everyone has the right to their own belief and I believe a word like hoax is at least impolite and at worst downright rude. I hope you would not use this word to describe Mohamed when talking to a Muslim. Otherwise you summed up my viewpoint fairly well.
Sorry, but your “proofs” of prophecy strike me as completely self-fulfilling and a very weak level of proof. As I've said in previous posts, I don’t understand the need of believers to prove anything. The mere attempt to prove the unprovable alienates me even more. I would also suggest that this "need to prove" from the conservative evangelical community is not shared by Christians at large. In fact, I would argue it is likely a minority viewpoint. I was raised in a Christian church, knew a bunch of great Christians and pastors (one in particular I admired greatly) and no one ever argued you could or had to prove anything. But I think we’ve beat this topic around enough.
New topic – original sin and why it is another reason why I don’t believe.
1. We are “born in sin” is just another way to demonize sex, sexuality and women’s sexuality in particular. What is wrong with coming out the vaginal canal? Nothing. It is the result of millions of years of evolution - nothing more nothing less.
2. It was Adam and especially Eve’s fault – really? An omnipotent deity creates man and woman. The deity gives them a sex drive. The deity puts them in a beautiful garden – naked – and they have sex. And that is a sin? Seems like the omnipotent deity set them up to fail. And yes, “biting the apple” is a euphemism for sex. And why in the world does Eve get the blame for this? It takes two to tango. And one can't argue their sex was sinful since it was outside of marriage since marriage as an institution. didn't yet exist.
3. What does make sense to me – you have to accept the concept of original sin in order for the very basis of Christianity to work. Otherwise, what did Jesus die for? Nothing.
4. So the deity sends his "one and only son" (he could make an infinite number right?) to die for our sins - so we could feel guilty about that forever? Sorry, can't bite.
Time to go back to work on my car. And I will no doubt say some very un-Christian things to it.
Tuesday, May 11, 2010
Well, I am not giving up that easy. You don't have to read my book but since we both just read books on Jesus maybe we can use this blog to compare notes.
You said in a previous entry that the prophesies in the Bible concerning Jesus were a hoax. If I am right, you think that Jesus maneuvered his life in such a way as to fulfill everyone of the prophesies concerning him thus making him look supernatural and validating the Old Testament.
These many prophesies concerning a Messiah in the Old Testament form a figurative fingerprint that only the Anointed One would be able to match. For a few of the prophecies it may be possible for someone to come along and say they fulfill them by manipulating circumstances but there are too many others that this is impossible.
There is a prophesy in Daniel 9 that foretells when Christ would be born in history. How could Jesus control that. Also, how could he control--- his ancestry, being born of a virgin, his place of birth, method of execution, soldiers gambling for his clothes, his legs would not be broken, his side would be pierced, his resurrection, miracles performed in front of skeptics (these are just a few). The odds of fulfilling just 8 prophesies is one chance in one hundred million billion; For fulfilling 48 prophecies it is said to be one chance in a trillion x13.
The odds alone make it impossible for anyone to fulfill the Old Testament prophecies, yet Jesus did. No other prophet, or religious leader through out history has ever done this or even claimed to have done this.
Believer in Truth
You said in a previous entry that the prophesies in the Bible concerning Jesus were a hoax. If I am right, you think that Jesus maneuvered his life in such a way as to fulfill everyone of the prophesies concerning him thus making him look supernatural and validating the Old Testament.
These many prophesies concerning a Messiah in the Old Testament form a figurative fingerprint that only the Anointed One would be able to match. For a few of the prophecies it may be possible for someone to come along and say they fulfill them by manipulating circumstances but there are too many others that this is impossible.
There is a prophesy in Daniel 9 that foretells when Christ would be born in history. How could Jesus control that. Also, how could he control--- his ancestry, being born of a virgin, his place of birth, method of execution, soldiers gambling for his clothes, his legs would not be broken, his side would be pierced, his resurrection, miracles performed in front of skeptics (these are just a few). The odds of fulfilling just 8 prophesies is one chance in one hundred million billion; For fulfilling 48 prophecies it is said to be one chance in a trillion x13.
The odds alone make it impossible for anyone to fulfill the Old Testament prophecies, yet Jesus did. No other prophet, or religious leader through out history has ever done this or even claimed to have done this.
Believer in Truth
Monday, May 10, 2010
We Both Love To Read
Alas. We could exchange books until the end of time and I doubt it would change either of our viewpoints.
I know you haven't been to excited about reading books I have suggested or given to you but I do recommend "The Jesus I never knew" by Philip Yancey. Some claim it is the best book about Jesus in the whole century. Mr. Yancey is a Christian but for you to be objective you need to be willing to hear both perspectives. Also, in exploring both sides you have nothing to loose and everything to gain.
I have a copy you can borrow.
I have a copy you can borrow.
Jesus Interrupted
I just read this book - Jesus Interrupted and I found it fascinating. I suspect you will find it infuriating. I'm now trying to read "Christianity, The First Three Thousand Years". I didn't realize it was a 1,000 page book until I picked it up from the library. Alas, too many late fees would result trying to finish the book. Also a bit overly dry historical style of writing for me.
Jeez, More Carbon
No methodology is full proof so that is a "straw man" argument. After all, what airplane flight is fool proof? What surgery? No scientist has ever claimed that C14 is fool proof but they do claim that it is a reliable method to accurately determine a date range. I don't think the shroud ever should have been tested since what would be the point? If it is important to peoples belief there is no need to confirm it's authenticity.
David,
I think you are on your own agenda here. I am not trying to prove or dis-prove Carbon 14 dating. I am simply saying it is controversial and can be used only to a certain extent (it is not fool proof). It is the best known technique we have right now. This has nothing to do with fundamentalist. As I said before, Carbon 14 dating has not dis-proven anything Biblical.
Just to prove my point I put Carbon dating accuracy in Google and every article except one (which had the same agenda to bash Christianity) said the exact same thing I'm saying. Only one article I saw was from a Christian viewpoint and they stated that "Carbon dating is our friend".
believer in Truth
I think you are on your own agenda here. I am not trying to prove or dis-prove Carbon 14 dating. I am simply saying it is controversial and can be used only to a certain extent (it is not fool proof). It is the best known technique we have right now. This has nothing to do with fundamentalist. As I said before, Carbon 14 dating has not dis-proven anything Biblical.
Just to prove my point I put Carbon dating accuracy in Google and every article except one (which had the same agenda to bash Christianity) said the exact same thing I'm saying. Only one article I saw was from a Christian viewpoint and they stated that "Carbon dating is our friend".
believer in Truth
More Carbon
Sorry but carbon-14 dating is only controversial in one community - among conservative evangelicals. It is not controversial - and is widely accepted - outside that community. Including among progressive Christians.
Sunday, May 9, 2010
Follow Truth
I will follow Truth no matter where it leads period. My comments concerning carbon dating are not an attempt to ignore science that threatens my faith. Carbon dating is controversial; this is a fact. And there is nothing that carbon dating has proven or dis-proven that changes any truth claims I've mentioned. I am simply stating that popular belief should not be your basis for defining truth.
And even though I am still growing in my faith and don't come close to understanding everything about God and His ways, if I found one piece of solid evidence that contradicted God's Word, I would have to throw the Bible out and my faith would be in vain. I am not interested in putting my faith in a God or a religion that I can manipulate to keep up with popular belief and scientific findings. As I said before my faith is not blind. True "faith" can only be founded on fact. The Bible has never needed to be corrected or changed in any way due to archaeological or scientific findings. And I think it is obvious from His teachings that Jesus Christ could care less about popular opinion or being politically correct. He was only interested in Truth.
"Prove (test) all things; hold fast to that which is good" 1 Thessalonians 5:21
Lee Stobel, an award winning journalist with the Chicago Tribune thought science had made the idea of a Creator irrelevant but after he did his own research said
"My road to atheism was paved by science...but, ironically so was my later journey to God."
Believer in Truth
And even though I am still growing in my faith and don't come close to understanding everything about God and His ways, if I found one piece of solid evidence that contradicted God's Word, I would have to throw the Bible out and my faith would be in vain. I am not interested in putting my faith in a God or a religion that I can manipulate to keep up with popular belief and scientific findings. As I said before my faith is not blind. True "faith" can only be founded on fact. The Bible has never needed to be corrected or changed in any way due to archaeological or scientific findings. And I think it is obvious from His teachings that Jesus Christ could care less about popular opinion or being politically correct. He was only interested in Truth.
"Prove (test) all things; hold fast to that which is good" 1 Thessalonians 5:21
Lee Stobel, an award winning journalist with the Chicago Tribune thought science had made the idea of a Creator irrelevant but after he did his own research said
"My road to atheism was paved by science...but, ironically so was my later journey to God."
Believer in Truth
Saturday, May 8, 2010
I'm really not interested in what is widely accepted, I'm only interested in the Truth. All through out history certain facts, methods were widely accepted only later to be found false or insufficient. When scientist don't have a fail proof answer, they rely on what they have at the time, thus carbon dating is accepted. This is the faith you place in science.
You are correct in stating that many people who profess to be Christians don't believe/follow the Bible. This is unfortunate and I believe comes from the fact they don't know their Bibles and they don't know God. Over and over again the Bible talks of this very kind of believer. "And so the LORD says, 'These people say they are mine. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. And their worship of me amounts to nothing more than human laws learned by rote...I will show that human wisdom is foolish and even the most brilliant people lack understanding'". Isaiah 29:13,14 (just one example)
I too was once guilty of this very thing. Coming to Christ at an early age, I later allowed my faith to be influenced by popular belief. It was much easier to just go with the flow instead of really believing in or researching God for myself. Since I have taken the time/energy to seek Him out on my own, I am no longer interested in believing in a religion I want Him and only Him. I so understand the verse from Jeremiah 29 "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you," declares the LORD. This goes for whatever race, religion and country you happen to be born into. As you said yourself----many Christians don't even know what they believe. I believe this is true for all other religions. You can be VERY religious and still be VERY lost!
Believer in the TRUTH
You are correct in stating that many people who profess to be Christians don't believe/follow the Bible. This is unfortunate and I believe comes from the fact they don't know their Bibles and they don't know God. Over and over again the Bible talks of this very kind of believer. "And so the LORD says, 'These people say they are mine. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. And their worship of me amounts to nothing more than human laws learned by rote...I will show that human wisdom is foolish and even the most brilliant people lack understanding'". Isaiah 29:13,14 (just one example)
I too was once guilty of this very thing. Coming to Christ at an early age, I later allowed my faith to be influenced by popular belief. It was much easier to just go with the flow instead of really believing in or researching God for myself. Since I have taken the time/energy to seek Him out on my own, I am no longer interested in believing in a religion I want Him and only Him. I so understand the verse from Jeremiah 29 "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you," declares the LORD. This goes for whatever race, religion and country you happen to be born into. As you said yourself----many Christians don't even know what they believe. I believe this is true for all other religions. You can be VERY religious and still be VERY lost!
Believer in the TRUTH
Widely Accepted
Carbon 14 dating is widely accepted. Another area where we'll have to ATD. Two bad not even all Christians believe the bible is the infallible word of god. Perhaps if you could convince all Christians that would ne a start.
Thursday, May 6, 2010
One more comment about the Turin Shroud---Carbon dating is controversial and is wildly inconsistent so to dismiss this shroud as a hoax on this evidence I believe is wrong. But I would also say whether this shroud is the real deal or not does not dismiss the reality of Jesus Christ and His resurrection. There is plenty of solid evidence apart from this shroud and the shroud is just a relic that I have no interest in worshiping.
Concerning our inefficient designer, I look around and marvel at what He created. Yes, this is far from a perfect world but that is because man is far from perfect. The sin that has entered this world has led to much destruction. He gave the world to man to rule over and the choices we have made along the way have resulted in what the world is today.
As far as dinosaurs. I don't have an answer to why they were here (but I sure think they are cool). The Bible actually mentions large creatures that are similar to our discovery of dinosaurs. This leads me to a point I have been meaning to make---The Bible is the only ancient book that is accurate in all scientific details. Other ancient holy books include legends and errors. Even more modern holy books like the Koran are full of historical and chronological blunders. If the Bible is God's Word (as I am claiming it is)it must be infallible and without error. It would not take a whole lot of scientific or archaeological evidence to disprove the Bible. One piece is all it would take. Yet it seems the more we discover(in all areas of life)it only proves the validity of the Bible. The Bible truly is unique compared to any other book in the world.
Believer in the Truth
Concerning our inefficient designer, I look around and marvel at what He created. Yes, this is far from a perfect world but that is because man is far from perfect. The sin that has entered this world has led to much destruction. He gave the world to man to rule over and the choices we have made along the way have resulted in what the world is today.
As far as dinosaurs. I don't have an answer to why they were here (but I sure think they are cool). The Bible actually mentions large creatures that are similar to our discovery of dinosaurs. This leads me to a point I have been meaning to make---The Bible is the only ancient book that is accurate in all scientific details. Other ancient holy books include legends and errors. Even more modern holy books like the Koran are full of historical and chronological blunders. If the Bible is God's Word (as I am claiming it is)it must be infallible and without error. It would not take a whole lot of scientific or archaeological evidence to disprove the Bible. One piece is all it would take. Yet it seems the more we discover(in all areas of life)it only proves the validity of the Bible. The Bible truly is unique compared to any other book in the world.
Believer in the Truth
Wednesday, May 5, 2010
A Designer?
BTW, if the natural world had been designed by a maker I would say he/she had an odd sense of design. The vast majority (some estimate in the 90% or higher range) of species that once roamed the Earth are now extinct. Pretty inefficient designer. And what were the dinosaurs? A 50 million year experiment? If the goal was to design humans the designer missed - by a lot.
Carbon Dating
Three independent labs have carbon dated the shroud to much later than the crucifixion. BIT have attacked the results based on claims of "procedural flaws" (a common strategy). They hold test protocols to impossible standards that can never be met. The science appears to indicate that it is not genuine.
Comments are appreciated but may or may not be responded to. A conversation with one BIT is enough. I gotta make a living too ya know.
Faith and science do not, and should not, work together. Scientific inquiry does not necessary lead to faith. For some it does, for some it doesn't - this is true of all human experiences. I guess we'll have to leave it at that as it is another area where we'll have to ATD (agree to disagree).
Comments are appreciated but may or may not be responded to. A conversation with one BIT is enough. I gotta make a living too ya know.
Faith and science do not, and should not, work together. Scientific inquiry does not necessary lead to faith. For some it does, for some it doesn't - this is true of all human experiences. I guess we'll have to leave it at that as it is another area where we'll have to ATD (agree to disagree).
A Photo
Hi David,
Thanks for the pic. for my profile. You know me too well; I would have left it blank. Also want to apologize for sending the last post twice. I tried to edit and didn't realize it sent.
Just a quick comment on the Turin Shroud. I just watched a documentary not to long ago concerning the shroud. Thought it was really well done and seemed to show some solid evidence for its authenticity. That is the extent of my knowledge on it though.
I noticed that you have a couple questions posed to you in the comment section. Are you responding to those?
tj
Thanks for the pic. for my profile. You know me too well; I would have left it blank. Also want to apologize for sending the last post twice. I tried to edit and didn't realize it sent.
Just a quick comment on the Turin Shroud. I just watched a documentary not to long ago concerning the shroud. Thought it was really well done and seemed to show some solid evidence for its authenticity. That is the extent of my knowledge on it though.
I noticed that you have a couple questions posed to you in the comment section. Are you responding to those?
tj
Tuesday, May 4, 2010
Faith and Science work together
Yes, I too am excited to have this opportunity to exchange ideas and I am sure this will be good for both of us.
OK, let me start by saying-- if I don't address everything you've mentioned so far, it is not because I am ignoring an issue but only because I am trying to focus on one or two thoughts at a time. This will allow for shorter, more frequent entries.
I feel from your comments I need to clarify that I am not anti-science. The discoveries we are making concerning the physical and the natural are exciting and incredible. I just believe that faith and science should work together. Science is limited to man's capability at the time and has had to correct ideas and theories throughout history as more and more evidence presents itself. As our understanding of our world grows this should only increase our desire to know and love its Maker. God has never contradicted science... Science contradicts God when scientist try to fill in philosophical questions about how we were created without turning to God. This is where yours and my faith differs. To put your faith in science alone and believe "the cosmos is all there is and ever will be" (to quote Carl Sagan), is a pretty big leap. Science does not have all the answers, its focus is in the realm of particulars; particulars have no meaning apart from the pattern of the universal plan. It's not a "god of the gaps" error (as you mentioned) when you turn to God for the answers. God is the glue that binds all the pieces of the puzzle together. He is behind everything. The error comes in when you leave God out! Here are a few quotes from famous scientist to show this error-----
"Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." Richard Dawkins
"Biologist must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved."
Francis Clark
"Most modern biologist, having reviewed with satisfaction the downfall of the spontaneous generation hypothesis, yet unwilling to accept the alternative belief in special creation, are left with nothing. I think a scientist has no choice but to approach the orgin of life through a hypothesis of spontaneous generation. One has only to contemplate the magnitude of this talk to concede spontaneous generation of a living organism is impossible. Yet here we are."
George Wald
"An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the orgin of live appears at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going."
Francis Clark (Nobel Prize winner)
These scientist seem to refuse to follow the Truth no matter where it may lead.
"The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'" Psalm 53
Believer in the Truth
OK, let me start by saying-- if I don't address everything you've mentioned so far, it is not because I am ignoring an issue but only because I am trying to focus on one or two thoughts at a time. This will allow for shorter, more frequent entries.
I feel from your comments I need to clarify that I am not anti-science. The discoveries we are making concerning the physical and the natural are exciting and incredible. I just believe that faith and science should work together. Science is limited to man's capability at the time and has had to correct ideas and theories throughout history as more and more evidence presents itself. As our understanding of our world grows this should only increase our desire to know and love its Maker. God has never contradicted science... Science contradicts God when scientist try to fill in philosophical questions about how we were created without turning to God. This is where yours and my faith differs. To put your faith in science alone and believe "the cosmos is all there is and ever will be" (to quote Carl Sagan), is a pretty big leap. Science does not have all the answers, its focus is in the realm of particulars; particulars have no meaning apart from the pattern of the universal plan. It's not a "god of the gaps" error (as you mentioned) when you turn to God for the answers. God is the glue that binds all the pieces of the puzzle together. He is behind everything. The error comes in when you leave God out! Here are a few quotes from famous scientist to show this error-----
"Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." Richard Dawkins
"Biologist must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved."
Francis Clark
"Most modern biologist, having reviewed with satisfaction the downfall of the spontaneous generation hypothesis, yet unwilling to accept the alternative belief in special creation, are left with nothing. I think a scientist has no choice but to approach the orgin of life through a hypothesis of spontaneous generation. One has only to contemplate the magnitude of this talk to concede spontaneous generation of a living organism is impossible. Yet here we are."
George Wald
"An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the orgin of live appears at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going."
Francis Clark (Nobel Prize winner)
These scientist seem to refuse to follow the Truth no matter where it may lead.
"The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'" Psalm 53
Believer in the Truth
Monday, May 3, 2010
A Turin Shroud
I am curious what you think of this – do you think it held Jesus? Is it an object to revere as Catholics do? Is it an object to pray over as the Pope does?
David
David
Friends
I am glad we are having this exchange, even if we never agree, it will deepen our friendship.
Sunday, May 2, 2010
Eternal Destination
It strikes me as odd that we use the same words (proof, evidence, reason) but these words have completely different meanings to us. We both want proof but I don’t think you need proof to believe as you do. It is absurd to require proof for what to me is unprovable. Schroedinger was exactly right – science IS silent regarding a creator – and that is precisely because the scientific model cannot possibly prove the existence of a god. (Some find this silence uncomfortable - many do not.) This silence does not indicate that science is lacking. Francis Collins is right – science and religion do not overlap so they are in effect silent about each other. The great mistake for centuries was that religion intruded into the world of science. I really thought we left that behind in the dark ages but I guess not.
Eternal destination – another very odd concept. But a very logical part of any belief system. If you are going to require strict adherence to a system of beliefs, give up “sinful” acts, there has to be a reward – and a dire threat if you don’t adhere. I have zero interest in eternal life. This life is plenty for me and in fact I only want to focus on making this life the best it can be. I can do this by being the best father, husband, brother, and friend – one doesn’t need to believe in a god to be a good person. Frankly I couldn’t care less about eternal life and since I don’t believe, hell doesn’t exist. (Although I’ve had a couple clients who have made me wonder……)
Hell – a strange idea indeed given the state of today’s world. There are women in Condo who are living in the worst hell right now. Raped a dozen times a day and then tortured after that. These women are already in hell. And not for any “sins” they committed – they just had the misfortune to be born in the wrong place. How do you tell a person who is treated so that they must believe as you do or you will go to hell? They don't need a savior - they need a gun - a big gun.
I really take exception to this statement in your last post: “the next step is faith (this is true for science too)”. This is not true of science. When a scientist leaps to faith simply because they cannot understand a phenomena of nature they have made the “god of the gaps” error. (When there is a gap in knowledge insert the supernatural to bridge the gap.) Indeed, if all scientists did this we would still be bleeding sick people to cure disease and epileptics would still be viewed as possessed by demons. Issac Newton even made the “god of the gaps” mistake in Principia Mathematica. He claimed all the mysteries of nature were now understood – except for the motion of the planets. This could not be explained so it was clearly the “handiwork of God”. Even undergrad physics majors in college understand the principals of orbital mechanics – no supernatural explanation is required.
Eternal destination – another very odd concept. But a very logical part of any belief system. If you are going to require strict adherence to a system of beliefs, give up “sinful” acts, there has to be a reward – and a dire threat if you don’t adhere. I have zero interest in eternal life. This life is plenty for me and in fact I only want to focus on making this life the best it can be. I can do this by being the best father, husband, brother, and friend – one doesn’t need to believe in a god to be a good person. Frankly I couldn’t care less about eternal life and since I don’t believe, hell doesn’t exist. (Although I’ve had a couple clients who have made me wonder……)
Hell – a strange idea indeed given the state of today’s world. There are women in Condo who are living in the worst hell right now. Raped a dozen times a day and then tortured after that. These women are already in hell. And not for any “sins” they committed – they just had the misfortune to be born in the wrong place. How do you tell a person who is treated so that they must believe as you do or you will go to hell? They don't need a savior - they need a gun - a big gun.
I really take exception to this statement in your last post: “the next step is faith (this is true for science too)”. This is not true of science. When a scientist leaps to faith simply because they cannot understand a phenomena of nature they have made the “god of the gaps” error. (When there is a gap in knowledge insert the supernatural to bridge the gap.) Indeed, if all scientists did this we would still be bleeding sick people to cure disease and epileptics would still be viewed as possessed by demons. Issac Newton even made the “god of the gaps” mistake in Principia Mathematica. He claimed all the mysteries of nature were now understood – except for the motion of the planets. This could not be explained so it was clearly the “handiwork of God”. Even undergrad physics majors in college understand the principals of orbital mechanics – no supernatural explanation is required.
Thursday, April 29, 2010
More On Faith & Proof
David, I want proof before I make any kind of commitment or investment in this life. How much more important is it for me to be absolutely certain based upon solid evidence before accepting by faith those things that affect my eternal destination. Faith in God and His Word, is far more important than belief about things of this life. True Faith can only be founded upon fact---not feelings, intuition, or emotion. "The Faith" the Bible refers to is that body of truth which provides the only reliable answers to all of life's ultimate questions.
Yes, we can't see God but faith is the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). Faith must never contradict evidence and reason or it would be irrational. Where evidence and reason lead, the next step is faith (this is true for science too).
Disappointment in faith comes in when you don't use evidence and reason. When people put faith in church, religion, science only, it may give you a sense of well being for a time but that belief will eventually prove to be a delusion.
Nobel laureate Erwin Schroedinger said "The scientific picture of the real world around me is ghastly silent about all that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It knows nothing of good or bad, God and eternity.....Whence came I and whither go I? That is the great unfathomable question, the same for every one of us. Science has no answer to it."
believer in Truth
Yes, we can't see God but faith is the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). Faith must never contradict evidence and reason or it would be irrational. Where evidence and reason lead, the next step is faith (this is true for science too).
Disappointment in faith comes in when you don't use evidence and reason. When people put faith in church, religion, science only, it may give you a sense of well being for a time but that belief will eventually prove to be a delusion.
Nobel laureate Erwin Schroedinger said "The scientific picture of the real world around me is ghastly silent about all that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It knows nothing of good or bad, God and eternity.....Whence came I and whither go I? That is the great unfathomable question, the same for every one of us. Science has no answer to it."
believer in Truth
Wednesday, April 28, 2010
A Note To Our Followers
If you find A Friendly Conversation interesting, please go to the blog and add your comments. TJ and I would love to hear from you!
David
David
A Mind Dump
A mind dump, sorry.
I find claims of "proof" by believers very odd for two reasons. One, there is nothing to prove. Faith is just that - faith. Why would a believer need to prove anything? Two, the evidence provided as proof never rises to the level of proof that would be accepted in court or by a doctor to make a diagnosis. Indeed, I doubt you would accept this level of "proof" if a car mechanic was telling you your car needed a $2000 repair.
The only evidence I have seen presented is ancient writings by unknown authors and claimed present day miracles. The writings - some in the Bible, some not. Hardly convincing proof. Jesus proved himself by fulfilling prophecy? This strikes me as a self-fulfilling prophecy - ancient writers claim X will happen in the future. Someone in the future reads the ancient writer, and poof - they claim to be X.
Miracles? This could be proven very easily to me. Jesus performed miracles in public - this is the level of proof I would need. IF the miracles are observed, measured, and verified by multiple objective observers. I guarantee then - I will be a believer. Example - walk on water. Easy to prove the deity can violate the law of gravity by independently verifying there is no support structure under the person. Document the miracle using objective tools to remove human bias and I'm a believer.
I have also heard it said it has been "proven" there is no other life in the universe. I'm sorry but this is so silly I hardly know where to begin. How do you prove a negative (no life)? You can't. The unique conditions that allow life on earth are so unusual they could never happen again? No mainstream scientist has accepted this idea. We don't begin to know enough about the universe to draw this conclusion. Yes, some who have science degrees will claim this and write nice books but they have violated their professional standards by abandoning the scientific method for understanding the world around us. Indeed, they have allowed their faith to interfere with their professional outlook. This claim also strikes me as somewhat arrogant - billions of galaxies were created for one minor species, on one minor planet, in one unremarkable solar system? In my mind Christians diminish their faith by making such claims.
A brilliant evangelical Christian scientist who does not make this mistake is Francis Collins. I've read one of his books and was very impressed by his passion for his faith and his clear argument that faith and science are two different worlds and do not overlap. Collins disputes the "proof" believers present and particularly the false "scientific" proofs. I admire Collins.
There is a geologist (don't remember his name off hand) who has a PhD in geology from Harvard who is a young earther - he has allowed his faith to so blind him that he has rejected several centuries of study, millions of pieces of scientific evidence, and now says the earth is only a handful of millennia old. As one atheist put it - "his brain is an embarrassment to humanity". Harsh yes - but I find the twisting of science to support faith deeply disturbing. It is poisoning our educational system - Texas leads the way by rejecting evolution. No other western educational system is teaching such nonsense.
Truth: that which can be objectively proven through repeatable verifiable methods. And the lack of information does not by default mean there is a god. That is the fallacy of the "god of the gaps" idea (if there is a gap in our understanding we insert god to explain it). But that is a topic for another day.
David
I find claims of "proof" by believers very odd for two reasons. One, there is nothing to prove. Faith is just that - faith. Why would a believer need to prove anything? Two, the evidence provided as proof never rises to the level of proof that would be accepted in court or by a doctor to make a diagnosis. Indeed, I doubt you would accept this level of "proof" if a car mechanic was telling you your car needed a $2000 repair.
The only evidence I have seen presented is ancient writings by unknown authors and claimed present day miracles. The writings - some in the Bible, some not. Hardly convincing proof. Jesus proved himself by fulfilling prophecy? This strikes me as a self-fulfilling prophecy - ancient writers claim X will happen in the future. Someone in the future reads the ancient writer, and poof - they claim to be X.
Miracles? This could be proven very easily to me. Jesus performed miracles in public - this is the level of proof I would need. IF the miracles are observed, measured, and verified by multiple objective observers. I guarantee then - I will be a believer. Example - walk on water. Easy to prove the deity can violate the law of gravity by independently verifying there is no support structure under the person. Document the miracle using objective tools to remove human bias and I'm a believer.
I have also heard it said it has been "proven" there is no other life in the universe. I'm sorry but this is so silly I hardly know where to begin. How do you prove a negative (no life)? You can't. The unique conditions that allow life on earth are so unusual they could never happen again? No mainstream scientist has accepted this idea. We don't begin to know enough about the universe to draw this conclusion. Yes, some who have science degrees will claim this and write nice books but they have violated their professional standards by abandoning the scientific method for understanding the world around us. Indeed, they have allowed their faith to interfere with their professional outlook. This claim also strikes me as somewhat arrogant - billions of galaxies were created for one minor species, on one minor planet, in one unremarkable solar system? In my mind Christians diminish their faith by making such claims.
A brilliant evangelical Christian scientist who does not make this mistake is Francis Collins. I've read one of his books and was very impressed by his passion for his faith and his clear argument that faith and science are two different worlds and do not overlap. Collins disputes the "proof" believers present and particularly the false "scientific" proofs. I admire Collins.
There is a geologist (don't remember his name off hand) who has a PhD in geology from Harvard who is a young earther - he has allowed his faith to so blind him that he has rejected several centuries of study, millions of pieces of scientific evidence, and now says the earth is only a handful of millennia old. As one atheist put it - "his brain is an embarrassment to humanity". Harsh yes - but I find the twisting of science to support faith deeply disturbing. It is poisoning our educational system - Texas leads the way by rejecting evolution. No other western educational system is teaching such nonsense.
Truth: that which can be objectively proven through repeatable verifiable methods. And the lack of information does not by default mean there is a god. That is the fallacy of the "god of the gaps" idea (if there is a gap in our understanding we insert god to explain it). But that is a topic for another day.
David
Tuesday, April 27, 2010
My Motivation
Yikes!! There is so much to say. I still want to respond to some things you wrote awhile back. I will try to focus on one or two thoughts as to keep it short.
You are right. My motivation for this blog is different from yours. I am passionate about Truth and I want everyone to know, especially my dear friends. I am not interested in selling you on some religion; I want you to know the God who created you. What I am hoping you will see is there is plenty of good, solid evidence backing up the Bible and Jesus. God did not ask us to follow Him without giving us PLENTY of evidence to His existence.
The quote about truth from Carl Sagan is referring to the cosmos, how we got here. He mentioned in the same lecture that "we are made of star stuff!" He is making truth claims about "How we got here; What is reality???"
I want to show you that the claims I am making concerning God appeal to facts of history that are clearly recognizable and accessible to everyone. Clark Pinnock defines these types of facts: The facts backing the Christian claim are not a special kind of religious fact. They are the cognitive, informational facts upon which all historical, legal, and ordinary decisions are based."
As far as I know, science is discovering that everything points to the universe having a beginning. No scientist can say for sure what caused that beginning. Carl Sagan has already decided there is no God so even though everything points to a creator he has already ruled out that possibility. Doesn't sound like he is "pursuing the truth no matter where it leads", as he said we all should do. I am hoping you will at least be open to my comments on here.
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:20
You are right. My motivation for this blog is different from yours. I am passionate about Truth and I want everyone to know, especially my dear friends. I am not interested in selling you on some religion; I want you to know the God who created you. What I am hoping you will see is there is plenty of good, solid evidence backing up the Bible and Jesus. God did not ask us to follow Him without giving us PLENTY of evidence to His existence.
The quote about truth from Carl Sagan is referring to the cosmos, how we got here. He mentioned in the same lecture that "we are made of star stuff!" He is making truth claims about "How we got here; What is reality???"
I want to show you that the claims I am making concerning God appeal to facts of history that are clearly recognizable and accessible to everyone. Clark Pinnock defines these types of facts: The facts backing the Christian claim are not a special kind of religious fact. They are the cognitive, informational facts upon which all historical, legal, and ordinary decisions are based."
As far as I know, science is discovering that everything points to the universe having a beginning. No scientist can say for sure what caused that beginning. Carl Sagan has already decided there is no God so even though everything points to a creator he has already ruled out that possibility. Doesn't sound like he is "pursuing the truth no matter where it leads", as he said we all should do. I am hoping you will at least be open to my comments on here.
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:20
Saturday, April 24, 2010
Carl Sagan A Believer?
Interesting that you would quote Carl Sagan. And this illustrates our problem - you and I take different meanings for the same quote. Sagan was describing the scientific model method of weeding out human bias and finding scientific truth. He was not describing any sort of search for a spiritual or religious truth. Indeed, Sagan was at least a agnostic but may have been an atheist. He is a great hero of atheists.
You have not provided any evidence that is any more compelling or persuasive than what a Muslin, Mormon, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. provide. All believers Claim the Truth and point to ancient writings to prove they are right. All religions are not the same - they vary is significant ways. I've never claimed that Christianity is the same as other religions - but the level of proof is the same: I'm right because my books says I'm right.
I stand by an earlier comment - TJ is a Christian because she was born in a Christian culture. If TJ was born in Saudia Arabia she would be a veiled Muslim woman (hard to imagine you with a veil I must admit). The faith of 99% of people is determined by where they are born. A very small number change (Black Americans who become Muslim, Jews convert to Christianity, etc.) The existence of 3-4 major religions and dozens of smaller ones, all claiming they are right, all fragmenting more and more over time (how many Christian denominations are there now?) has convinced me that all religions are inventions of humanity.
Your goal here is different than mine: you want to change my mind and get me to accept Jesus as my lord and savor. I have no desire to change your mind or the mind of anyone else. My goal is just this: to answer your question, why don't you believe in Christ? The answer will also explain why I don't believe in Zeus, the Roman God of War (Mars), or Mohammed.
Indeed you and I are more similar than different. You reject all religions but one. I reject all.
Gotta go pull weeds
David
You have not provided any evidence that is any more compelling or persuasive than what a Muslin, Mormon, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. provide. All believers Claim the Truth and point to ancient writings to prove they are right. All religions are not the same - they vary is significant ways. I've never claimed that Christianity is the same as other religions - but the level of proof is the same: I'm right because my books says I'm right.
I stand by an earlier comment - TJ is a Christian because she was born in a Christian culture. If TJ was born in Saudia Arabia she would be a veiled Muslim woman (hard to imagine you with a veil I must admit). The faith of 99% of people is determined by where they are born. A very small number change (Black Americans who become Muslim, Jews convert to Christianity, etc.) The existence of 3-4 major religions and dozens of smaller ones, all claiming they are right, all fragmenting more and more over time (how many Christian denominations are there now?) has convinced me that all religions are inventions of humanity.
Your goal here is different than mine: you want to change my mind and get me to accept Jesus as my lord and savor. I have no desire to change your mind or the mind of anyone else. My goal is just this: to answer your question, why don't you believe in Christ? The answer will also explain why I don't believe in Zeus, the Roman God of War (Mars), or Mohammed.
Indeed you and I are more similar than different. You reject all religions but one. I reject all.
Gotta go pull weeds
David
Carl Sagan
From: TJ
To: David
Well I guess for now I will respond here. I'll start where you left off---a quote from Carl Sagan "We wish to pursue truth no matter where it leads. But to find the truth, we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact.....The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true."
As you said, I don't want to be talking past each other either and if we can both agree with this quote from Carl Sagan then lets grapple with the TRUTH. Lets put aside what we want to believe and see where TRUTH leads.
In my first email I mentioned how Jesus said the whole reason he came to earth was "to testify to the truth". He knew mankind would grapple with this. I know the burden lies with me to prove the reliability of Jesus words and the Bible and this is where I beg your patience. Please allow me to show how the Bible is "unique" and can not be compared to other religious books nor can Jesus be bunched together with other worldly prophets.
I will start with the Bible and just say it is unique in several different ways---Continuity, Circulation, Translation, Teachings, Influence on Literature, Influence on civilization. I would love to expand on any or all of these as you direct. It seems to me if you are searching for the truth you should turn to the book that has drawn more attention than any other in all the world. Theodore Roosevelt observed, "A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education."
TJ
To: David
Well I guess for now I will respond here. I'll start where you left off---a quote from Carl Sagan "We wish to pursue truth no matter where it leads. But to find the truth, we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact.....The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true."
As you said, I don't want to be talking past each other either and if we can both agree with this quote from Carl Sagan then lets grapple with the TRUTH. Lets put aside what we want to believe and see where TRUTH leads.
In my first email I mentioned how Jesus said the whole reason he came to earth was "to testify to the truth". He knew mankind would grapple with this. I know the burden lies with me to prove the reliability of Jesus words and the Bible and this is where I beg your patience. Please allow me to show how the Bible is "unique" and can not be compared to other religious books nor can Jesus be bunched together with other worldly prophets.
I will start with the Bible and just say it is unique in several different ways---Continuity, Circulation, Translation, Teachings, Influence on Literature, Influence on civilization. I would love to expand on any or all of these as you direct. It seems to me if you are searching for the truth you should turn to the book that has drawn more attention than any other in all the world. Theodore Roosevelt observed, "A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education."
TJ
Thursday, April 22, 2010
A Difficult Response
To: TJ
From: David
Date: April 21 2010
Your response made my response difficult. Been kicking around various responses for awhile. It is difficult because I concluded that we will be, and are, simply talking past each other so not sure what we will accomplish.
It is clear to me that all holy books have vile passages that believers have used to justify great evil throughout history. (Hitler said he was a Christian and said in his autobiography Mien Kamph (My Battle) "by persecuting the Jews I am doing the Lords work.) The Koran is full of vile passages, I'm sure Hindu books are, not sure about Buddhists - but yes, the Bible also. All believers respond as you did - some variant of "you are interpreting it wrong" and "here are passages that prove I'm right". Moderate Muslims say this all the time about the passages in their book. Believers always claim the extremists in their systems are not true Muslims, Christians, etc. etc. (The claimed Christian who murdered the abortion doctor used bible passages to justify his action, said he was a Christian, and I'm sure believers will claim he is not a Christian, misinterpreted the bible, etc.) The only difference between moderates and extremists - moderates explain away the vile passages and extremists embrace them. Centuries ago Christians embraced many passages rejected by today's Christians to burn people alive to "purify their souls". You would say this was not Christian but you would have lost this theological argument during the Spanish Inquisition.
What is truth? That which can be objectively proven because the gray matter in our skulls so easily deceives us. As Carl Sagen said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".
David
Yes
To: TJ
From: David
Date: April 5 2010 later that day
I did receive it, still considering a response.
David
Are You There?
To: David
From: TJ
Date: April 5 2010
Out of curiosity, did you get my response? I wrote to you the next day and I am asking because several of my emails are not going through to people. Verizon has changed plans and we are having a lot of difficulty with this new system.
Let me know.
TJ
A Six-Shooter Death
To: David
From: TJ
Date: March 30 1010
OK, now that I know you are counting I will try to be better. In my defense---- I did just read a 27 page report from you!!
Christ alone claimed to be God; He is the only one not in the grave, (none of the others even claimed to be raised from death); He is the only one with documented miracles (not only in the Bible) and He is the only one with some 300 prophesies concerning His birth, life and death, several of which date back to 1400BC. Also the Bible is the most popular, most publized, most talked about and written about book on earth. There is a reason God said we will be without excuse and this is one of them----He gave us His Word and made sure it was passed down accurately.
As far as Joseph Smith (I know he is just one of many but you mentioned him and I only have a few words so)...Mormons claim he died as a "Christian Martyr," but the truth is he died fighting, using a six-shooter that had been smuggled to him, and he succeeded in killing at least two of his assailants." A far cry from Christ, who while being crucified, said "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do."
Now, Leviticus 25:44-46---lets go to Galatians 3:26-28 "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus...There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." The Bible is a whole and taken as a whole it will NOT contradict itself. We must distinguish between the authoritative teaching of divine norms and the recording of permissive rules that try to protect the weak who find themselves in human situations coming from a world of sin. Slavery is not commanded or condoned in Scripture, but there are directives that seek to guide those subjected to it. Just as Joseph Smith tried to justify polygamy through the Bible (the Bible clearly states marriage should be between one man and one woman) the same is true for slavery.
Believer in Truth
TJ
Limits on Speech?
From: David
To: TJ
Date: March 29 2010
428 words. I propose we limit each response to 100 words. Brevity is more effective.
Many people have made the same claims Christ made. Joesph Smith, Mohamed, etc. For every person who chooses to embrace what Christ said there is another who will talk your ear off that Mohamad was right. Or Joesph Smith. Or whoever. If TJ were born in Saudia Arabia there is a 99% chance you would be telling me that Mohamid was right and Christ was wrong. We are all a product of the cultural we are born in.
Please explain Leviticus 25:44-46
99 words.
David
Many Dead Churches
From: TJ
To: David
Date: Mar 28, 2010
As far as the article I was not surprised in the least. Sadly I am fairly certain I have come across many pastors and religious people that would fit into this category, some in my own family. I would ask that you would try to read the rest with an open mind. You signed off saying you are a critical thinker and rational analyizer. Despite what you might think I am too. I am not interested in hearsay or believing in something as a false comfort. Over the next weeks, months?? I hope to prove this to you.
I started out by asking you the same question Pilate asked Jesus "What is truth?" The irony of this question is---- Truth was standing right in front of him. Jesus says "I am the way, the truth, and the life. The only way to the Father is through me." (John 14:6)
These pastors from the article didn't understand this. Jesus asked Simon Peter a very similar question "And how about you? who do you say I am?"' Simon Peter said, "You're the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of the living God." Jesus came back, "God bless you, Simon, son of Jonah! You didn't get that answer out of books or from teachers. My Father in heaven, God himself, let you in on this secret of who I really am. And now I'm going to tell you who you are, really are. you are Peter, a rock. This is the rock on which I will put together my church, a church so expansive with energy that not even the gates of hell will be able to keep it out." (Mathew 16:15-18) And this is exactly what He did. There are many dead churches but thank God for the ones that are expansive with energy!!
The rock Jesus spoke of here was the revelation of Jesus as the Christ that Peter expressed: Jesus as God's anointed Son, and Jesus as one's personal Lord and Savior. It is upon that rock that Jesus has always built His church. And it is without this revelation that people are led astray, even people of the established church (priest, pastors, members). They are seeking a religion over a relationship. Truth is a Person----Jesus Christ----and knowing the Truth is a relationship.
I have so much more to add but I will try to keep to a limit with each dialogue. I can not tell you how excited I am about being able to share my faith and testimony. Thank you very much for this opportunity.
The believer in the TRUTH.
TJ