OK just to let you know, I posted my last one without seeing your new post. I will address your two new questions in my next blog. Didn't want you to think I was ignoring what you.
Goodnight, tj
Friday, July 30, 2010
A Dead End?
One more question before we leave for vacation. Yay!
If God had a plan and everything we see is the result of his perfect plan, what of Neanderthal Man (& Woman)? Similar to my dinosaur question - was God just messin' around? Why did he create a humanoid who evolved for tens of thousand of years only to let him dead end in extinction? Odd plan. I'm reminded of the Gary Larson cartoon showing God pulling Earth out of his oven and thinking, "I've got a feeling this thing is half baked".
And what of the millions of people who lived and died before Christ declared himself a savior? After all, Christ only appeared 2000 years ago and modern humans have been around for a million years roughly. Did they automatically go to Hell since they hadn't accepted Christ - who God hadn't gotten around to sending down to save them?
Sorry, that was two questions.
If God had a plan and everything we see is the result of his perfect plan, what of Neanderthal Man (& Woman)? Similar to my dinosaur question - was God just messin' around? Why did he create a humanoid who evolved for tens of thousand of years only to let him dead end in extinction? Odd plan. I'm reminded of the Gary Larson cartoon showing God pulling Earth out of his oven and thinking, "I've got a feeling this thing is half baked".
And what of the millions of people who lived and died before Christ declared himself a savior? After all, Christ only appeared 2000 years ago and modern humans have been around for a million years roughly. Did they automatically go to Hell since they hadn't accepted Christ - who God hadn't gotten around to sending down to save them?
Sorry, that was two questions.
Being good isn't good enough
Hi David,
You are right about my use of the Bible to support myself. It is God's Word and the only Word I can completely stand upon in this world. It is where I turn for truth, wisdom, knowledge, comfort, joy. I'm not sure where one turns for life's answers without it. Yes I have read several other religious books, although I can't say all the way through, I have read large sections. I know you say all religions claim their book as truth but just as I mentioned with Jesus Christ, no book can hold a candle to the Bible. There is no other authority on earth that has the wisdom of the Bible nor does any religious book compare as far as historical reliability, accuracy, prophesies, content. It has not had to change to be politically, scientifically or historically correct as many have had to do. People through the ages have tried to eliminate it yet the Bible remains the most sold, popular, circulated, smuggled, written about, talked about book in the world.
It is too bad that all Christians can't be on the same page but as I have said before Christianity is an abused word; Many people claim to be Christians who are not following Christ nor do they know Him. Also, we are all flawed individuals that allow pride, selfishness, greed, etc, to get in the way. As Christ followers, if we could get the first (and 2nd) and greatest commandment down "Love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself" all our differences would melt away and we would be much more attractive to the world!!
To answer your question about Catholic babies going to hell. I don't believe in baby baptism but also I don't believe baptism is what saves a person. No where in the Bible does it say to baptize babies, this is a tradition started by the Catholic church. Nor does the Bible say baptism is what saves you. Over and over again the Bible says it is our faith in Christ that saves us ---Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." I think of the thief on the cross next to Jesus who said "Lord remember me when You come into Your Kingdom." And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." It wasn't any physical act that saved this man just his acknowledgement of Jesus as coming from above(GOD). I don't think Jesus was thinking about whether this man had been baptized as a baby or not or whatever else he did in life (good or bad) because up until this point, this thief did not believe in Christ. I do however HIGHLY believe in baptism as an act of obedience that reflects a decision already made and as a picture of what has happened to us once we believed---- "our sins have been washed away and we have been made new". Olivia's description is the best I've heard "It is like sign language to show God how much we love Him".
I want to address one more question you asked--- how can there be good people (like yourself) but they do not believe? We all have the capacity to do good or evil. We were all created to do good but we have freewill and can choose. This is true of believers and non-believers. It is not our good works that saves us or keeps us from sinning. And no matter how good you think you are, we are all sinners in need of a Savior. We are only free from the penalty of sin by accepting Jesus as our LORD and Savior; which involves recognizing our sin, repenting of our sin, and believing that He died for us and rose again. And if we truly believe this, it should lead us into a life of following Him with our whole hearts; Not out of obligation but out of love and awe of Him. It doesn't mean we are suddenly perfect(obviously). But we are a new creation in Christ. Sin still exist in our lives but now we are no longer a slave to sin. The Holy Spirit is our guide, leading us and enabling us to change wrong behaviors, attitudes, actions as we yield to Him and seek His help. Jesus teaches his disciples to pray--- "lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil". Jesus knew we would need help making right choices. I guess as believers we all have a choice to waste this gift we have been given on ourselves but Christ challenges us to live for Him.
The book of Romans explains it best "What then? shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?.....But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our LORD."
Have a great trip!
Believer in the Truth
You are right about my use of the Bible to support myself. It is God's Word and the only Word I can completely stand upon in this world. It is where I turn for truth, wisdom, knowledge, comfort, joy. I'm not sure where one turns for life's answers without it. Yes I have read several other religious books, although I can't say all the way through, I have read large sections. I know you say all religions claim their book as truth but just as I mentioned with Jesus Christ, no book can hold a candle to the Bible. There is no other authority on earth that has the wisdom of the Bible nor does any religious book compare as far as historical reliability, accuracy, prophesies, content. It has not had to change to be politically, scientifically or historically correct as many have had to do. People through the ages have tried to eliminate it yet the Bible remains the most sold, popular, circulated, smuggled, written about, talked about book in the world.
It is too bad that all Christians can't be on the same page but as I have said before Christianity is an abused word; Many people claim to be Christians who are not following Christ nor do they know Him. Also, we are all flawed individuals that allow pride, selfishness, greed, etc, to get in the way. As Christ followers, if we could get the first (and 2nd) and greatest commandment down "Love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself" all our differences would melt away and we would be much more attractive to the world!!
To answer your question about Catholic babies going to hell. I don't believe in baby baptism but also I don't believe baptism is what saves a person. No where in the Bible does it say to baptize babies, this is a tradition started by the Catholic church. Nor does the Bible say baptism is what saves you. Over and over again the Bible says it is our faith in Christ that saves us ---Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." I think of the thief on the cross next to Jesus who said "Lord remember me when You come into Your Kingdom." And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." It wasn't any physical act that saved this man just his acknowledgement of Jesus as coming from above(GOD). I don't think Jesus was thinking about whether this man had been baptized as a baby or not or whatever else he did in life (good or bad) because up until this point, this thief did not believe in Christ. I do however HIGHLY believe in baptism as an act of obedience that reflects a decision already made and as a picture of what has happened to us once we believed---- "our sins have been washed away and we have been made new". Olivia's description is the best I've heard "It is like sign language to show God how much we love Him".
I want to address one more question you asked--- how can there be good people (like yourself) but they do not believe? We all have the capacity to do good or evil. We were all created to do good but we have freewill and can choose. This is true of believers and non-believers. It is not our good works that saves us or keeps us from sinning. And no matter how good you think you are, we are all sinners in need of a Savior. We are only free from the penalty of sin by accepting Jesus as our LORD and Savior; which involves recognizing our sin, repenting of our sin, and believing that He died for us and rose again. And if we truly believe this, it should lead us into a life of following Him with our whole hearts; Not out of obligation but out of love and awe of Him. It doesn't mean we are suddenly perfect(obviously). But we are a new creation in Christ. Sin still exist in our lives but now we are no longer a slave to sin. The Holy Spirit is our guide, leading us and enabling us to change wrong behaviors, attitudes, actions as we yield to Him and seek His help. Jesus teaches his disciples to pray--- "lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil". Jesus knew we would need help making right choices. I guess as believers we all have a choice to waste this gift we have been given on ourselves but Christ challenges us to live for Him.
The book of Romans explains it best "What then? shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?.....But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our LORD."
Have a great trip!
Believer in the Truth
Thursday, July 29, 2010
An Evangelical Christian I Admire
Interesting how you quote the Bible to prove the Bible. Seems like circular reasoning to me. {:)
Have you read the Koran? Or other holy books? I haven't but I bet their fervent believers make similar claims - warn of false prophets, etc. You frame our discussion as Christianity vs. non-believers when in reality all people of other faiths (a billion or so) and many Christians would disagree with many of your points. As I've said b/f, get all Christians on the same page and then work on non-believers. It is the many many disagreements among Christians that fuels many non-believers. Like Pentecostals who use snakes in their worship and speak in tongues. Just plain weird.
Do you think Catholics are going to Hell since they practice baptism at birth rather than when a person is older and can understand the idea of accepting Christ as their savior? How in the world can an infant do this? And if you don't believe they are going to Hell, why not?
Tonight I listened to a evangelical who I agreed with on many topics but I'm sure you would heatedly disagree with. Click on the link above and let me know what you think.
I believe claiming Satan as the instigator of evil is a cop out. People commit evil - we are all capable of it and I see no evidence of an evil supernatural power behind man's evil acts. I simply see people doing evil things. Cheating televangelists blame Satan for their transgressions - I despise this.
Studies have found that serial killers have one thing in common - a history of extreme child abuse at the hands of their parents (locked in closets for years, etc.) I don't see a supernatural evil being here - I see a person screwed up to a pathological degree who is a danger to society and must be locked up forever.
You close by saying I have no proof of my stance. You are right! But then I've never claimed that I had proof so alas, not much of a victory there. I'm more of an agnostic than an atheist.
A closing question for you - you clearly think I'm misguided but do you believe that I, David, am basically a good person? Am I an ethical person? A good husband? A good father? (Note I'm not saying perfect.) A good and trusted friend? If so, how is this possible if I don't believe?
Have you read the Koran? Or other holy books? I haven't but I bet their fervent believers make similar claims - warn of false prophets, etc. You frame our discussion as Christianity vs. non-believers when in reality all people of other faiths (a billion or so) and many Christians would disagree with many of your points. As I've said b/f, get all Christians on the same page and then work on non-believers. It is the many many disagreements among Christians that fuels many non-believers. Like Pentecostals who use snakes in their worship and speak in tongues. Just plain weird.
Do you think Catholics are going to Hell since they practice baptism at birth rather than when a person is older and can understand the idea of accepting Christ as their savior? How in the world can an infant do this? And if you don't believe they are going to Hell, why not?
Tonight I listened to a evangelical who I agreed with on many topics but I'm sure you would heatedly disagree with. Click on the link above and let me know what you think.
I believe claiming Satan as the instigator of evil is a cop out. People commit evil - we are all capable of it and I see no evidence of an evil supernatural power behind man's evil acts. I simply see people doing evil things. Cheating televangelists blame Satan for their transgressions - I despise this.
Studies have found that serial killers have one thing in common - a history of extreme child abuse at the hands of their parents (locked in closets for years, etc.) I don't see a supernatural evil being here - I see a person screwed up to a pathological degree who is a danger to society and must be locked up forever.
You close by saying I have no proof of my stance. You are right! But then I've never claimed that I had proof so alas, not much of a victory there. I'm more of an agnostic than an atheist.
A closing question for you - you clearly think I'm misguided but do you believe that I, David, am basically a good person? Am I an ethical person? A good husband? A good father? (Note I'm not saying perfect.) A good and trusted friend? If so, how is this possible if I don't believe?
Tuesday, July 27, 2010
False prophets
David, You are right when you say any religion can claim signs and wonders to persuade others into believing or supporting their own belief system. Mathew 24:24&25 says--"For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand." God is warning us "BEWARE this will happen, don't let it surprise you".
The spiritual world you deny exists is both good and evil. Satan is at work right along with Christ causing a darkness today that is hard to ignore. The Bible even says satan disguises himself as an angel of light. He is ready to deceive as many as possible with his limited power. I am also reminded of Moses and his dealings with Pharaoh---When Aaron (Moses brother) threw his staff down and it turned into a serpent to show Pharaoh the strength of God, Pharaoh called all his wise men and sorcerers and they also threw down their rods and they became serpents. But Moses rod swallowed up their rods!!!!
As I have mentioned before no other religion or prophet can hold a candle to JESUS. No other prophet has the record of miracles to back him up (which have extraordinary evidence). No other prophet is as famous. No other prophet has the prophesies to back him up. No other prophet claimed to be God Himself. No other religion has a group of people that have been more persecuted, killed, hated, yet they survive (rather odd for such a small, seemingly insignificant people group; Someone views them as a threat!!). Every other religion is about works or achievement to gain access or acceptance from God but God's Word says "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast"(Ephesians 2:8). Only in Christianity does God accept us just as we are and extends a FREE gift of salvation---John 3:16 "whosoever believes in me shall not perish but have everlasting life".
You said "If one faith "proved" it was correct by now surly the world would reflect this." I think the above statements are more than enough to reflect the Truth. Numbers or popularity do not equal truth.
I have to wonder where you put your confidence. You have no more "proof" of what you believe than you say I do. Just as you said to me "We quickly grasp stories and facts that support our beliefs - and quickly reject those that do not".
I would be very sure of my beliefs before I rejected my Creator.
Believer in the Truth
The spiritual world you deny exists is both good and evil. Satan is at work right along with Christ causing a darkness today that is hard to ignore. The Bible even says satan disguises himself as an angel of light. He is ready to deceive as many as possible with his limited power. I am also reminded of Moses and his dealings with Pharaoh---When Aaron (Moses brother) threw his staff down and it turned into a serpent to show Pharaoh the strength of God, Pharaoh called all his wise men and sorcerers and they also threw down their rods and they became serpents. But Moses rod swallowed up their rods!!!!
As I have mentioned before no other religion or prophet can hold a candle to JESUS. No other prophet has the record of miracles to back him up (which have extraordinary evidence). No other prophet is as famous. No other prophet has the prophesies to back him up. No other prophet claimed to be God Himself. No other religion has a group of people that have been more persecuted, killed, hated, yet they survive (rather odd for such a small, seemingly insignificant people group; Someone views them as a threat!!). Every other religion is about works or achievement to gain access or acceptance from God but God's Word says "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast"(Ephesians 2:8). Only in Christianity does God accept us just as we are and extends a FREE gift of salvation---John 3:16 "whosoever believes in me shall not perish but have everlasting life".
You said "If one faith "proved" it was correct by now surly the world would reflect this." I think the above statements are more than enough to reflect the Truth. Numbers or popularity do not equal truth.
I have to wonder where you put your confidence. You have no more "proof" of what you believe than you say I do. Just as you said to me "We quickly grasp stories and facts that support our beliefs - and quickly reject those that do not".
I would be very sure of my beliefs before I rejected my Creator.
Believer in the Truth
Sunday, July 25, 2010
Miracles & Conversions
I have two points in your last post to address - miracles and conversions.
Miracles. Clearly the man you spoke to you believed in this miracle. Clearly you do as well. I wonder though if a Hindu told you a story of a miracle he had experienced that proved his faith would you believe him? Or a Muslim? I must be blunt - the answer to both is no. You believe this gentleman's story because it conforms and supports your existing belief system in a powerful way. We quickly grasp stories and facts that do this - and quickly reject those that do not. In a previous post I addressed the criteria I have for believing in a miracle so I won't belabor the point here. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof - what this fellow provided doesn't meet this standard for me. That it meets others standards is fine - but it doesn't meet mine.
Conversion. There are many atheists who have "found Jesus". Many many many. Annnnnd.....there are many believers who are now atheists. Many many many. There are many Hindus who have become Christians and vise versa. So what is the point? We could exchange these testimonials until the sun (not Son) dies and it wouldn't prove anything. If one faith "proved" it was correct by now surly the world would reflect this - there wouldn't be a billion Muslims who are just as confident that you are wrong and they are right. And several hundred million Hindus. And a lot (tens of millions? - no idea) of Jews.
If it is any consolation, believers in other faiths agree with you about one issue - by rejecting all gods I am even more wrong than you. {;>)
Miracles. Clearly the man you spoke to you believed in this miracle. Clearly you do as well. I wonder though if a Hindu told you a story of a miracle he had experienced that proved his faith would you believe him? Or a Muslim? I must be blunt - the answer to both is no. You believe this gentleman's story because it conforms and supports your existing belief system in a powerful way. We quickly grasp stories and facts that do this - and quickly reject those that do not. In a previous post I addressed the criteria I have for believing in a miracle so I won't belabor the point here. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof - what this fellow provided doesn't meet this standard for me. That it meets others standards is fine - but it doesn't meet mine.
Conversion. There are many atheists who have "found Jesus". Many many many. Annnnnd.....there are many believers who are now atheists. Many many many. There are many Hindus who have become Christians and vise versa. So what is the point? We could exchange these testimonials until the sun (not Son) dies and it wouldn't prove anything. If one faith "proved" it was correct by now surly the world would reflect this - there wouldn't be a billion Muslims who are just as confident that you are wrong and they are right. And several hundred million Hindus. And a lot (tens of millions? - no idea) of Jews.
If it is any consolation, believers in other faiths agree with you about one issue - by rejecting all gods I am even more wrong than you. {;>)
Friday, July 16, 2010
Hi David,
Sorry to wait so long to start up again. With summer and playing catch-up after Rwanda, I have been busy.
I'm not sure where to start so thought I would share a little about what I saw and experienced in Rwanda. The trip was intense and wonderful, gut-wrenching and powerful. God is working in amazing ways in Rwanda and I got to experience it first hand.
A verse that came to mind several times as I heard stories and toured genocide sites was Jeremiah 17:9---"The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways according to the fruit of his doings." What happened in Rwanda (neighbors, friends, and family members killing, raping, torturing each other) could easily happen here. Earlier in Jeremiah 17 God says "Cursed is the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, whose heart departs from the LORD...." When are hearts are not surrendered to the LORD we are capable of all kinds of evil.
What was especially hard to witness were the churches where people came for refuge only to be turned in by the priest of that church and massacred. Being religious does not mean you are following the LORD and that was never more evident to me than in Rwanda. It reminded me of Jesus and how it was the religious people(priests) who were responsible for His death. It seems nothing has changed.
Well, that was the bad---- but the good was the healing taking place. So many people we worked with (translators, drivers, pastors, teachers) had the most amazing stories of how God has transformed their lives. God spoke to people right out, appeared in visions and dreams and spoke through others to get their attention. Through God's love the people of Rwanda are able to forgive the most horrendous offenses and the nation is on the mend.
One man I spoke with I wish I had recorded. He was an atheist, John was his name. Said he wanted nothing to do with God. He had read the Koran, Bible, and pretty much every other well known religious book and said he could tell you all about each religion. He thought they were all bogus---man is in charge of his own destination. He is well educated, and extremely smart and said he used to say if I can't see it or touch it I don't believe it!! Well, his brother (whom I also met, Pastor Clement) had prayed for John for 7 years to accept Christ. One day someone John worked with (high up official) asked John if his brother (Pastor Clement) could come see his wife. This man's wife had been suffering for years with personality disorder and depression that was almost debilitating. He had tried everything from different medications to witch docs, etc. and now was even willing to have a Pastor pray over his wife. John thought "what do I have to loose, I am not the one endorsing God"; It will be his brother that looks the fool not him so he agreed. John came along and witnessed demons come out of this ladies body when Pastor Clement prayed for her. She was completely healed and accepted Jesus that night. He said he went home and got on his hands and knees and cried out to God. He finally realized the TRUTH and humbled himself before his God. He surrendered his life to Christ that night and immediately felt God's presence. He now is the father of 8 beautiful kids whom I had the pleasure of meeting and is passionate about sharing Jesus with whomever he meets. He now knows there is much more to life than living for yourself and this world. The spiritual world is REAL(good and evil)!!
I know this isn't a story about the genocide but so much of what he said reminded me of what I have heard you say so I wanted to share. There are many more incredible stories but I'll stop for now.
Believer in the TRUTH
Sorry to wait so long to start up again. With summer and playing catch-up after Rwanda, I have been busy.
I'm not sure where to start so thought I would share a little about what I saw and experienced in Rwanda. The trip was intense and wonderful, gut-wrenching and powerful. God is working in amazing ways in Rwanda and I got to experience it first hand.
A verse that came to mind several times as I heard stories and toured genocide sites was Jeremiah 17:9---"The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways according to the fruit of his doings." What happened in Rwanda (neighbors, friends, and family members killing, raping, torturing each other) could easily happen here. Earlier in Jeremiah 17 God says "Cursed is the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, whose heart departs from the LORD...." When are hearts are not surrendered to the LORD we are capable of all kinds of evil.
What was especially hard to witness were the churches where people came for refuge only to be turned in by the priest of that church and massacred. Being religious does not mean you are following the LORD and that was never more evident to me than in Rwanda. It reminded me of Jesus and how it was the religious people(priests) who were responsible for His death. It seems nothing has changed.
Well, that was the bad---- but the good was the healing taking place. So many people we worked with (translators, drivers, pastors, teachers) had the most amazing stories of how God has transformed their lives. God spoke to people right out, appeared in visions and dreams and spoke through others to get their attention. Through God's love the people of Rwanda are able to forgive the most horrendous offenses and the nation is on the mend.
One man I spoke with I wish I had recorded. He was an atheist, John was his name. Said he wanted nothing to do with God. He had read the Koran, Bible, and pretty much every other well known religious book and said he could tell you all about each religion. He thought they were all bogus---man is in charge of his own destination. He is well educated, and extremely smart and said he used to say if I can't see it or touch it I don't believe it!! Well, his brother (whom I also met, Pastor Clement) had prayed for John for 7 years to accept Christ. One day someone John worked with (high up official) asked John if his brother (Pastor Clement) could come see his wife. This man's wife had been suffering for years with personality disorder and depression that was almost debilitating. He had tried everything from different medications to witch docs, etc. and now was even willing to have a Pastor pray over his wife. John thought "what do I have to loose, I am not the one endorsing God"; It will be his brother that looks the fool not him so he agreed. John came along and witnessed demons come out of this ladies body when Pastor Clement prayed for her. She was completely healed and accepted Jesus that night. He said he went home and got on his hands and knees and cried out to God. He finally realized the TRUTH and humbled himself before his God. He surrendered his life to Christ that night and immediately felt God's presence. He now is the father of 8 beautiful kids whom I had the pleasure of meeting and is passionate about sharing Jesus with whomever he meets. He now knows there is much more to life than living for yourself and this world. The spiritual world is REAL(good and evil)!!
I know this isn't a story about the genocide but so much of what he said reminded me of what I have heard you say so I wanted to share. There are many more incredible stories but I'll stop for now.
Believer in the TRUTH
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