Saturday, May 29, 2010
Interview
I listened to the interview you posted TJ. Many atheists agree with this guy. I also agree that there are many kind generous people who are motivated to perform wonderful deeds through their faiths. Unfortunately, it is a mixed bag with all faiths - great evils are also inflicted on humanity through faith. More common though is simple hypocrisy (condemning gays while engaging in the gay life, advocating the sanctity of marriage while having an affair, etc.) Clearly the human condition involves imperfection in adherence to all faiths, philosophies, etc. No religion is all bad - but none are all good either. Generally it is the fundamentalists who drive me crazy.
Saturday, May 22, 2010
Actions should speak louder than words
Hi David,
You make a lot of valid points which I look forward to addressing but I am having a hard time keeping up. Again I ask that you be patient as I tackle each one. I guess I will put Adam and Eve on hold while I respond to your latest blog.
I certainly agree with you that we need more action on behalf of Christians. If every Christian stepped up and walked the walked---Oh what a world this would be. But I think you underscore the good done by Christianity. People have done harmful things in the name of Christianity but Christianity itself has had only positive effects. George Sarton, a historian of science, once said "The birth of Christianity changed forever the face of the Western World."
He was speaking about the much good Christians have done such as---The first hospitals were started under Christian influence. Blind, deaf, and mentally ill facilities were also started under Christianity. The Red Cross, Good will, and Salvation Army were founded by rock solid Christians; In fact the idea of charity arose out of Christianity. The abolition of slavery, the value and dignity of human life, the freedom of speech, the freedom and dignity of woman's rights all came from Christian values.
True Christian charity and effective Christian action come from a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ---a Christ-centered transformation of the heart.
It is the failure to distinguish between the Christian and those supposedly representing Christianity that so often gets most of the attention.
As far as sharing Jesus to people as well as lending a helping hand, what good is it to give someone food etc. but ignore the more important issues of the soul. Jesus said in the sermon on the mount "Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." It is usually the downcast and poor who most recognize and accept their need of a Savior.
When I went to India, I started to understand this verse. People were hungry not just for physical food but for soul food. They realized their need for something beyond the physical satisfaction. After returning to the states so many people said "I bet you wanted to bring those children home with you". Actually, that was not what was on my mind...I look around this country and all I see is kids and adults inundated with STUFF. We are so full of materialism we don't realize how naked and poor we really are. People here have the same need as the people in India but we are too stuffed to see what we really need. Isaiah says "Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, eat what is good, And let your soul delight itself in abundance. Incline your ear, and come to Me. Hear, and your soul shall live!"
Hypocrisy is believing there is a heaven and hell and then just choosing to address people's physical needs.
With all that said... I too wish actions spoke louder than words more often.
This will probably be my last blog for awhile as I am leaving for Rwanda and won't be back until June 12th.
Believer in Truth
You make a lot of valid points which I look forward to addressing but I am having a hard time keeping up. Again I ask that you be patient as I tackle each one. I guess I will put Adam and Eve on hold while I respond to your latest blog.
I certainly agree with you that we need more action on behalf of Christians. If every Christian stepped up and walked the walked---Oh what a world this would be. But I think you underscore the good done by Christianity. People have done harmful things in the name of Christianity but Christianity itself has had only positive effects. George Sarton, a historian of science, once said "The birth of Christianity changed forever the face of the Western World."
He was speaking about the much good Christians have done such as---The first hospitals were started under Christian influence. Blind, deaf, and mentally ill facilities were also started under Christianity. The Red Cross, Good will, and Salvation Army were founded by rock solid Christians; In fact the idea of charity arose out of Christianity. The abolition of slavery, the value and dignity of human life, the freedom of speech, the freedom and dignity of woman's rights all came from Christian values.
True Christian charity and effective Christian action come from a genuine relationship with Jesus Christ---a Christ-centered transformation of the heart.
It is the failure to distinguish between the Christian and those supposedly representing Christianity that so often gets most of the attention.
As far as sharing Jesus to people as well as lending a helping hand, what good is it to give someone food etc. but ignore the more important issues of the soul. Jesus said in the sermon on the mount "Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." It is usually the downcast and poor who most recognize and accept their need of a Savior.
When I went to India, I started to understand this verse. People were hungry not just for physical food but for soul food. They realized their need for something beyond the physical satisfaction. After returning to the states so many people said "I bet you wanted to bring those children home with you". Actually, that was not what was on my mind...I look around this country and all I see is kids and adults inundated with STUFF. We are so full of materialism we don't realize how naked and poor we really are. People here have the same need as the people in India but we are too stuffed to see what we really need. Isaiah says "Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, eat what is good, And let your soul delight itself in abundance. Incline your ear, and come to Me. Hear, and your soul shall live!"
Hypocrisy is believing there is a heaven and hell and then just choosing to address people's physical needs.
With all that said... I too wish actions spoke louder than words more often.
This will probably be my last blog for awhile as I am leaving for Rwanda and won't be back until June 12th.
Believer in Truth
A Priest Doing the Lords Work
I haven't read your post yet but will read and respond this weekend.
I'm starting a new book today - Tattoos on the Heart: The Power of Boundless Compassion. The author is a Jesuit priest who has committed his life to help gang members in the LA barrios leave gangs and train them to become productive members of society. (I just finished this book in case you are curious.) I am very impressed by people like this who dedicate their lives to work with the poor and less fortunate. If you cut from the New Testament all the words Jesus said about helping the poor there wouldn't be much left. Working with criminals to turn them to productive members of society is the highest form of this work. It seems to me that 99% of this priests work involves saving people from poverty and crime rather than hell. Perhaps this is because they are living in hell so preaching to them to accept Jesus to avoid hell would be silly and naive. His acts speak much loader than any words could. This man should be sainted by his church long before John Paul II.
I've read in the Gresham Outlook about a local minister who works to feed the poor. He also greatly impresses me. His church was not a beautiful building but instead wherever the poor could be found. He said (paraphrasing here) that feeding and helping the poor was his primary concern and converting them secondary (I assume a close 2nd). This differs I think from Jesus' approach - he talked endlessly about helping the poor but saving them from going to hell seemed to be his primary concern - as it does for most Christians. I don't remember this ministers name but perhaps you do. There are many many examples of all religions (even Islam) motivating people to commit themselves to selfless acts of courage and generosity. Faith is a great benefit to mankind in these cases. (And this is where I disagree with the more strident atheists that religion is always bad.) If only this were the case more often - I would even take 50% of the time. Sadly, it seems to be pretty rare. If is wasn't, food pantrys and soup kitchens would never be short of food. So often those that preach the loudest and judge most harshly are often the biggest hypocrites.
This was going to be a short post to announce my new book but you know me.....
I'm starting a new book today - Tattoos on the Heart: The Power of Boundless Compassion. The author is a Jesuit priest who has committed his life to help gang members in the LA barrios leave gangs and train them to become productive members of society. (I just finished this book in case you are curious.) I am very impressed by people like this who dedicate their lives to work with the poor and less fortunate. If you cut from the New Testament all the words Jesus said about helping the poor there wouldn't be much left. Working with criminals to turn them to productive members of society is the highest form of this work. It seems to me that 99% of this priests work involves saving people from poverty and crime rather than hell. Perhaps this is because they are living in hell so preaching to them to accept Jesus to avoid hell would be silly and naive. His acts speak much loader than any words could. This man should be sainted by his church long before John Paul II.
I've read in the Gresham Outlook about a local minister who works to feed the poor. He also greatly impresses me. His church was not a beautiful building but instead wherever the poor could be found. He said (paraphrasing here) that feeding and helping the poor was his primary concern and converting them secondary (I assume a close 2nd). This differs I think from Jesus' approach - he talked endlessly about helping the poor but saving them from going to hell seemed to be his primary concern - as it does for most Christians. I don't remember this ministers name but perhaps you do. There are many many examples of all religions (even Islam) motivating people to commit themselves to selfless acts of courage and generosity. Faith is a great benefit to mankind in these cases. (And this is where I disagree with the more strident atheists that religion is always bad.) If only this were the case more often - I would even take 50% of the time. Sadly, it seems to be pretty rare. If is wasn't, food pantrys and soup kitchens would never be short of food. So often those that preach the loudest and judge most harshly are often the biggest hypocrites.
This was going to be a short post to announce my new book but you know me.....
Friday, May 21, 2010
I will let God be the Judge
David,
You are right---Judgement is for God and I am thankful for this. God is the one who searches every heart and knows the intent of each person. But being a witness to the Truth is not judging another; it is simply showing others the way. Jesus came to be a witness to the Truth and as His followers we are to do the same. It is my joy and privilege to share Him with others. When you experience a relationship with Jesus Christ nothing else in life compares. You won't be able to keep it to yourself either.
Jeremiah says "If I say I'll never mention the LORD or speak in His name, His Word burns in my heart like a fire. It's like a fire in my bones! I am weary of holding it in." I so understand this!!
I can see why you think all religions say their books are correct and are from God but that doesn't mean one isn't real. There is counterfeit money but that doesn't negate the real stuff. Actually I think the fact that there are so many religions trying to point the way to eternal life only supports the argument for God and heaven. We were made with a desire to know our Maker but too many of us want to make Him in our own image (create our own God, on our terms) not realizing we were made in HIS image. We must come to Him on His terms not ours.
"Now this is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3
When you read this verse, His terms seem a little easy compared to all other religions. The Bible is the only religious book that shows it is not about man working or earning his way to heaven, nirvana (or becoming a god); It is about what God did for man so that we would be able to have a relationship with Him again(sacrificed His Son).
Those verses in Deuteronomy that you mentioned, show a God who is jealous for us. It is hard to believe but His love for us is deeper and greater than even ours for a spouse or a child. He is expressing the outcome of someone who is trying to take one of His own away. I think you would be willing to kill if someone was taking your child from you. The Old Testament is crammed full of verses of His unfailing love, His faithfulness, His trustworthiness...The same God is in the Old Testament as in the New Testament(don't forget Revelation).
God will not force us to choose Him (That is not love); In Isaiah 30, it says "But the LORD waits for you to come to Him so He can show you His love and compassion". Isaiah also says "The earth suffers for the sins of its people, for they have twisted the instructions of God, violated His laws, and broken His everlasting covenant. Therefore a curse consumes the earth and its people".
One more thought about the Bible. Can you say this about any prophet of those other books---
"He was born in an obscure village, the child of a peasant woman. He grew up in still another village, where he worked in a carpenter shop until he was thirty. Then for three years he was an itinerant preacher.
He never wrote a book.
He never held an office.
He never had a family or owned a house.
He didn't go to college.
He never traveled 200 miles from the place where he was born.
He did none of these things one usually associates with greatness.
He had no credentials but himself.
He was only 33 when public opinion turned against him. His friends ran away. He was turned over to his enemies and went through the mockery of a trial. He was nailed to a cross between two thieves.
Buried in a borrowed grave.
Nineteen centuries have come and gone, and today he is still the central figure of the human race, the leader of mankind's progress.
All the armies that ever marched, all the navies that ever sailed, all the parliaments that ever sat, all the kings that ever reigned, put together, have not affected the life of man on earth as much as this ONE SOLITARY LIFE." Author Unknown
Believer in Truth
You are right---Judgement is for God and I am thankful for this. God is the one who searches every heart and knows the intent of each person. But being a witness to the Truth is not judging another; it is simply showing others the way. Jesus came to be a witness to the Truth and as His followers we are to do the same. It is my joy and privilege to share Him with others. When you experience a relationship with Jesus Christ nothing else in life compares. You won't be able to keep it to yourself either.
Jeremiah says "If I say I'll never mention the LORD or speak in His name, His Word burns in my heart like a fire. It's like a fire in my bones! I am weary of holding it in." I so understand this!!
I can see why you think all religions say their books are correct and are from God but that doesn't mean one isn't real. There is counterfeit money but that doesn't negate the real stuff. Actually I think the fact that there are so many religions trying to point the way to eternal life only supports the argument for God and heaven. We were made with a desire to know our Maker but too many of us want to make Him in our own image (create our own God, on our terms) not realizing we were made in HIS image. We must come to Him on His terms not ours.
"Now this is eternal life: that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3
When you read this verse, His terms seem a little easy compared to all other religions. The Bible is the only religious book that shows it is not about man working or earning his way to heaven, nirvana (or becoming a god); It is about what God did for man so that we would be able to have a relationship with Him again(sacrificed His Son).
Those verses in Deuteronomy that you mentioned, show a God who is jealous for us. It is hard to believe but His love for us is deeper and greater than even ours for a spouse or a child. He is expressing the outcome of someone who is trying to take one of His own away. I think you would be willing to kill if someone was taking your child from you. The Old Testament is crammed full of verses of His unfailing love, His faithfulness, His trustworthiness...The same God is in the Old Testament as in the New Testament(don't forget Revelation).
God will not force us to choose Him (That is not love); In Isaiah 30, it says "But the LORD waits for you to come to Him so He can show you His love and compassion". Isaiah also says "The earth suffers for the sins of its people, for they have twisted the instructions of God, violated His laws, and broken His everlasting covenant. Therefore a curse consumes the earth and its people".
One more thought about the Bible. Can you say this about any prophet of those other books---
"He was born in an obscure village, the child of a peasant woman. He grew up in still another village, where he worked in a carpenter shop until he was thirty. Then for three years he was an itinerant preacher.
He never wrote a book.
He never held an office.
He never had a family or owned a house.
He didn't go to college.
He never traveled 200 miles from the place where he was born.
He did none of these things one usually associates with greatness.
He had no credentials but himself.
He was only 33 when public opinion turned against him. His friends ran away. He was turned over to his enemies and went through the mockery of a trial. He was nailed to a cross between two thieves.
Buried in a borrowed grave.
Nineteen centuries have come and gone, and today he is still the central figure of the human race, the leader of mankind's progress.
All the armies that ever marched, all the navies that ever sailed, all the parliaments that ever sat, all the kings that ever reigned, put together, have not affected the life of man on earth as much as this ONE SOLITARY LIFE." Author Unknown
Believer in Truth
Response, Response, Response
Hey, we agree on something! I also don't believe all religions can be correct. We differ on what that means - I don't think any are correct.
As I've posted before, I don't believe proof is necessary for a believer. Their belief is enough seems to me. One reason why I hold this opinion - the "proof" given strikes me as weak at best. Billions of Muslims will quote endlessly from their book to prove you are wrong - and it is a useless discussion in my mind since you both believe your proof. If you really believe in God let others be and let God sort it out when they kick the bucket. There is way too much judgement by believers that want to provide proof and as the bible says, "judge not lest you be judged". Few believers seem to live by that although progressive believers seem more inclined to do so.
The bible is perfect and is the inherent word of God? Even the largest Christian denomination (Catholic church) doesn't believe the the bible should be read as a literal work much less a work of science. And please explain why Deuteronomy 13:6, 8-15 is the inherent word of god. I have to believe that was written by a foolish man reflecting his ignorance. If it was written by a deity - or accurately reflects the deities word - that is no deity I would ever follow or love. I've never understood why good Christians don't cut the bible in half and throw away the old testament. How Jews base an entire religion on it I'll never fathom.
As I've posted before, I don't believe proof is necessary for a believer. Their belief is enough seems to me. One reason why I hold this opinion - the "proof" given strikes me as weak at best. Billions of Muslims will quote endlessly from their book to prove you are wrong - and it is a useless discussion in my mind since you both believe your proof. If you really believe in God let others be and let God sort it out when they kick the bucket. There is way too much judgement by believers that want to provide proof and as the bible says, "judge not lest you be judged". Few believers seem to live by that although progressive believers seem more inclined to do so.
The bible is perfect and is the inherent word of God? Even the largest Christian denomination (Catholic church) doesn't believe the the bible should be read as a literal work much less a work of science. And please explain why Deuteronomy 13:6, 8-15 is the inherent word of god. I have to believe that was written by a foolish man reflecting his ignorance. If it was written by a deity - or accurately reflects the deities word - that is no deity I would ever follow or love. I've never understood why good Christians don't cut the bible in half and throw away the old testament. How Jews base an entire religion on it I'll never fathom.
Thursday, May 20, 2010
I am sorry for putting words in your mouth. I was referring to an earlier comment concerning Jesus when you said----"Someone in the future reads the ancient writings and poof - they claim to be X". Jesus did claim to fulfill everyone one of the prophesies written about Him and He claimed to be God, so..... let ME use the word hoax. Jesus is a hoax, or He is a liar if this is not true. I'm not interested in trying to be politically correct. I don't want to bash another religion or argue with anyone I only want to get down to the bottom of all this (The TRUTH).
All religions can not be true. They all might have some truth in them but if they contradict each other then they can not all be true. For this reason, I want to know what I believe and why I believe. I agree with you that not all Christians feel the need (or are able)to prove their faith. I believe this is true for all religions. Sadly, the majority of people blindly follow others with no real reason to believe what they do. 1 Peter 3:15 says "always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear."
As I've mentioned before at some point our faith will be tested. Whether our faith is in a person, a false religion or false gods, materialism etc. It will be tested and then we will know if we have placed our faith correctly. I want to find out now if my faith is real. I don't want to be surprised later. I wouldn't sit in a chair that I didn't think would hold me up. Why would I believe in a God that I wasn't sure was real or that I could trust??
I know we seem stuck on this issue of proving "faith" but I am hoping you will take up the challenge and follow the evidence. If I wasn't so sure of what I believed the last thing I would do is want you to look at the evidence. One of my favorite verses in the Bible is Romans 12:2 "Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your MIND, that you may PROVE what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God."
I meant to address your other points but I fear I have gone on too long. I look forward to talking about Adam and Eve next time.
Believer in Truth
All religions can not be true. They all might have some truth in them but if they contradict each other then they can not all be true. For this reason, I want to know what I believe and why I believe. I agree with you that not all Christians feel the need (or are able)to prove their faith. I believe this is true for all religions. Sadly, the majority of people blindly follow others with no real reason to believe what they do. 1 Peter 3:15 says "always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear."
As I've mentioned before at some point our faith will be tested. Whether our faith is in a person, a false religion or false gods, materialism etc. It will be tested and then we will know if we have placed our faith correctly. I want to find out now if my faith is real. I don't want to be surprised later. I wouldn't sit in a chair that I didn't think would hold me up. Why would I believe in a God that I wasn't sure was real or that I could trust??
I know we seem stuck on this issue of proving "faith" but I am hoping you will take up the challenge and follow the evidence. If I wasn't so sure of what I believed the last thing I would do is want you to look at the evidence. One of my favorite verses in the Bible is Romans 12:2 "Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your MIND, that you may PROVE what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God."
I meant to address your other points but I fear I have gone on too long. I look forward to talking about Adam and Eve next time.
Believer in Truth
Wednesday, May 19, 2010
The Trinity
I find this video hilarious - I hope you don't find it offensive. Seems like it is tastefully done.
David
David
Original Sin
I never used the word hoax - that is your word and not mine. Everyone has the right to their own belief and I believe a word like hoax is at least impolite and at worst downright rude. I hope you would not use this word to describe Mohamed when talking to a Muslim. Otherwise you summed up my viewpoint fairly well.
Sorry, but your “proofs” of prophecy strike me as completely self-fulfilling and a very weak level of proof. As I've said in previous posts, I don’t understand the need of believers to prove anything. The mere attempt to prove the unprovable alienates me even more. I would also suggest that this "need to prove" from the conservative evangelical community is not shared by Christians at large. In fact, I would argue it is likely a minority viewpoint. I was raised in a Christian church, knew a bunch of great Christians and pastors (one in particular I admired greatly) and no one ever argued you could or had to prove anything. But I think we’ve beat this topic around enough.
New topic – original sin and why it is another reason why I don’t believe.
1. We are “born in sin” is just another way to demonize sex, sexuality and women’s sexuality in particular. What is wrong with coming out the vaginal canal? Nothing. It is the result of millions of years of evolution - nothing more nothing less.
2. It was Adam and especially Eve’s fault – really? An omnipotent deity creates man and woman. The deity gives them a sex drive. The deity puts them in a beautiful garden – naked – and they have sex. And that is a sin? Seems like the omnipotent deity set them up to fail. And yes, “biting the apple” is a euphemism for sex. And why in the world does Eve get the blame for this? It takes two to tango. And one can't argue their sex was sinful since it was outside of marriage since marriage as an institution. didn't yet exist.
3. What does make sense to me – you have to accept the concept of original sin in order for the very basis of Christianity to work. Otherwise, what did Jesus die for? Nothing.
4. So the deity sends his "one and only son" (he could make an infinite number right?) to die for our sins - so we could feel guilty about that forever? Sorry, can't bite.
Time to go back to work on my car. And I will no doubt say some very un-Christian things to it.
Tuesday, May 11, 2010
Well, I am not giving up that easy. You don't have to read my book but since we both just read books on Jesus maybe we can use this blog to compare notes.
You said in a previous entry that the prophesies in the Bible concerning Jesus were a hoax. If I am right, you think that Jesus maneuvered his life in such a way as to fulfill everyone of the prophesies concerning him thus making him look supernatural and validating the Old Testament.
These many prophesies concerning a Messiah in the Old Testament form a figurative fingerprint that only the Anointed One would be able to match. For a few of the prophecies it may be possible for someone to come along and say they fulfill them by manipulating circumstances but there are too many others that this is impossible.
There is a prophesy in Daniel 9 that foretells when Christ would be born in history. How could Jesus control that. Also, how could he control--- his ancestry, being born of a virgin, his place of birth, method of execution, soldiers gambling for his clothes, his legs would not be broken, his side would be pierced, his resurrection, miracles performed in front of skeptics (these are just a few). The odds of fulfilling just 8 prophesies is one chance in one hundred million billion; For fulfilling 48 prophecies it is said to be one chance in a trillion x13.
The odds alone make it impossible for anyone to fulfill the Old Testament prophecies, yet Jesus did. No other prophet, or religious leader through out history has ever done this or even claimed to have done this.
Believer in Truth
You said in a previous entry that the prophesies in the Bible concerning Jesus were a hoax. If I am right, you think that Jesus maneuvered his life in such a way as to fulfill everyone of the prophesies concerning him thus making him look supernatural and validating the Old Testament.
These many prophesies concerning a Messiah in the Old Testament form a figurative fingerprint that only the Anointed One would be able to match. For a few of the prophecies it may be possible for someone to come along and say they fulfill them by manipulating circumstances but there are too many others that this is impossible.
There is a prophesy in Daniel 9 that foretells when Christ would be born in history. How could Jesus control that. Also, how could he control--- his ancestry, being born of a virgin, his place of birth, method of execution, soldiers gambling for his clothes, his legs would not be broken, his side would be pierced, his resurrection, miracles performed in front of skeptics (these are just a few). The odds of fulfilling just 8 prophesies is one chance in one hundred million billion; For fulfilling 48 prophecies it is said to be one chance in a trillion x13.
The odds alone make it impossible for anyone to fulfill the Old Testament prophecies, yet Jesus did. No other prophet, or religious leader through out history has ever done this or even claimed to have done this.
Believer in Truth
Monday, May 10, 2010
We Both Love To Read
Alas. We could exchange books until the end of time and I doubt it would change either of our viewpoints.
I know you haven't been to excited about reading books I have suggested or given to you but I do recommend "The Jesus I never knew" by Philip Yancey. Some claim it is the best book about Jesus in the whole century. Mr. Yancey is a Christian but for you to be objective you need to be willing to hear both perspectives. Also, in exploring both sides you have nothing to loose and everything to gain.
I have a copy you can borrow.
I have a copy you can borrow.
Jesus Interrupted
I just read this book - Jesus Interrupted and I found it fascinating. I suspect you will find it infuriating. I'm now trying to read "Christianity, The First Three Thousand Years". I didn't realize it was a 1,000 page book until I picked it up from the library. Alas, too many late fees would result trying to finish the book. Also a bit overly dry historical style of writing for me.
Jeez, More Carbon
No methodology is full proof so that is a "straw man" argument. After all, what airplane flight is fool proof? What surgery? No scientist has ever claimed that C14 is fool proof but they do claim that it is a reliable method to accurately determine a date range. I don't think the shroud ever should have been tested since what would be the point? If it is important to peoples belief there is no need to confirm it's authenticity.
David,
I think you are on your own agenda here. I am not trying to prove or dis-prove Carbon 14 dating. I am simply saying it is controversial and can be used only to a certain extent (it is not fool proof). It is the best known technique we have right now. This has nothing to do with fundamentalist. As I said before, Carbon 14 dating has not dis-proven anything Biblical.
Just to prove my point I put Carbon dating accuracy in Google and every article except one (which had the same agenda to bash Christianity) said the exact same thing I'm saying. Only one article I saw was from a Christian viewpoint and they stated that "Carbon dating is our friend".
believer in Truth
I think you are on your own agenda here. I am not trying to prove or dis-prove Carbon 14 dating. I am simply saying it is controversial and can be used only to a certain extent (it is not fool proof). It is the best known technique we have right now. This has nothing to do with fundamentalist. As I said before, Carbon 14 dating has not dis-proven anything Biblical.
Just to prove my point I put Carbon dating accuracy in Google and every article except one (which had the same agenda to bash Christianity) said the exact same thing I'm saying. Only one article I saw was from a Christian viewpoint and they stated that "Carbon dating is our friend".
believer in Truth
More Carbon
Sorry but carbon-14 dating is only controversial in one community - among conservative evangelicals. It is not controversial - and is widely accepted - outside that community. Including among progressive Christians.
Sunday, May 9, 2010
Follow Truth
I will follow Truth no matter where it leads period. My comments concerning carbon dating are not an attempt to ignore science that threatens my faith. Carbon dating is controversial; this is a fact. And there is nothing that carbon dating has proven or dis-proven that changes any truth claims I've mentioned. I am simply stating that popular belief should not be your basis for defining truth.
And even though I am still growing in my faith and don't come close to understanding everything about God and His ways, if I found one piece of solid evidence that contradicted God's Word, I would have to throw the Bible out and my faith would be in vain. I am not interested in putting my faith in a God or a religion that I can manipulate to keep up with popular belief and scientific findings. As I said before my faith is not blind. True "faith" can only be founded on fact. The Bible has never needed to be corrected or changed in any way due to archaeological or scientific findings. And I think it is obvious from His teachings that Jesus Christ could care less about popular opinion or being politically correct. He was only interested in Truth.
"Prove (test) all things; hold fast to that which is good" 1 Thessalonians 5:21
Lee Stobel, an award winning journalist with the Chicago Tribune thought science had made the idea of a Creator irrelevant but after he did his own research said
"My road to atheism was paved by science...but, ironically so was my later journey to God."
Believer in Truth
And even though I am still growing in my faith and don't come close to understanding everything about God and His ways, if I found one piece of solid evidence that contradicted God's Word, I would have to throw the Bible out and my faith would be in vain. I am not interested in putting my faith in a God or a religion that I can manipulate to keep up with popular belief and scientific findings. As I said before my faith is not blind. True "faith" can only be founded on fact. The Bible has never needed to be corrected or changed in any way due to archaeological or scientific findings. And I think it is obvious from His teachings that Jesus Christ could care less about popular opinion or being politically correct. He was only interested in Truth.
"Prove (test) all things; hold fast to that which is good" 1 Thessalonians 5:21
Lee Stobel, an award winning journalist with the Chicago Tribune thought science had made the idea of a Creator irrelevant but after he did his own research said
"My road to atheism was paved by science...but, ironically so was my later journey to God."
Believer in Truth
Saturday, May 8, 2010
I'm really not interested in what is widely accepted, I'm only interested in the Truth. All through out history certain facts, methods were widely accepted only later to be found false or insufficient. When scientist don't have a fail proof answer, they rely on what they have at the time, thus carbon dating is accepted. This is the faith you place in science.
You are correct in stating that many people who profess to be Christians don't believe/follow the Bible. This is unfortunate and I believe comes from the fact they don't know their Bibles and they don't know God. Over and over again the Bible talks of this very kind of believer. "And so the LORD says, 'These people say they are mine. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. And their worship of me amounts to nothing more than human laws learned by rote...I will show that human wisdom is foolish and even the most brilliant people lack understanding'". Isaiah 29:13,14 (just one example)
I too was once guilty of this very thing. Coming to Christ at an early age, I later allowed my faith to be influenced by popular belief. It was much easier to just go with the flow instead of really believing in or researching God for myself. Since I have taken the time/energy to seek Him out on my own, I am no longer interested in believing in a religion I want Him and only Him. I so understand the verse from Jeremiah 29 "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you," declares the LORD. This goes for whatever race, religion and country you happen to be born into. As you said yourself----many Christians don't even know what they believe. I believe this is true for all other religions. You can be VERY religious and still be VERY lost!
Believer in the TRUTH
You are correct in stating that many people who profess to be Christians don't believe/follow the Bible. This is unfortunate and I believe comes from the fact they don't know their Bibles and they don't know God. Over and over again the Bible talks of this very kind of believer. "And so the LORD says, 'These people say they are mine. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. And their worship of me amounts to nothing more than human laws learned by rote...I will show that human wisdom is foolish and even the most brilliant people lack understanding'". Isaiah 29:13,14 (just one example)
I too was once guilty of this very thing. Coming to Christ at an early age, I later allowed my faith to be influenced by popular belief. It was much easier to just go with the flow instead of really believing in or researching God for myself. Since I have taken the time/energy to seek Him out on my own, I am no longer interested in believing in a religion I want Him and only Him. I so understand the verse from Jeremiah 29 "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you," declares the LORD. This goes for whatever race, religion and country you happen to be born into. As you said yourself----many Christians don't even know what they believe. I believe this is true for all other religions. You can be VERY religious and still be VERY lost!
Believer in the TRUTH
Widely Accepted
Carbon 14 dating is widely accepted. Another area where we'll have to ATD. Two bad not even all Christians believe the bible is the infallible word of god. Perhaps if you could convince all Christians that would ne a start.
Thursday, May 6, 2010
One more comment about the Turin Shroud---Carbon dating is controversial and is wildly inconsistent so to dismiss this shroud as a hoax on this evidence I believe is wrong. But I would also say whether this shroud is the real deal or not does not dismiss the reality of Jesus Christ and His resurrection. There is plenty of solid evidence apart from this shroud and the shroud is just a relic that I have no interest in worshiping.
Concerning our inefficient designer, I look around and marvel at what He created. Yes, this is far from a perfect world but that is because man is far from perfect. The sin that has entered this world has led to much destruction. He gave the world to man to rule over and the choices we have made along the way have resulted in what the world is today.
As far as dinosaurs. I don't have an answer to why they were here (but I sure think they are cool). The Bible actually mentions large creatures that are similar to our discovery of dinosaurs. This leads me to a point I have been meaning to make---The Bible is the only ancient book that is accurate in all scientific details. Other ancient holy books include legends and errors. Even more modern holy books like the Koran are full of historical and chronological blunders. If the Bible is God's Word (as I am claiming it is)it must be infallible and without error. It would not take a whole lot of scientific or archaeological evidence to disprove the Bible. One piece is all it would take. Yet it seems the more we discover(in all areas of life)it only proves the validity of the Bible. The Bible truly is unique compared to any other book in the world.
Believer in the Truth
Concerning our inefficient designer, I look around and marvel at what He created. Yes, this is far from a perfect world but that is because man is far from perfect. The sin that has entered this world has led to much destruction. He gave the world to man to rule over and the choices we have made along the way have resulted in what the world is today.
As far as dinosaurs. I don't have an answer to why they were here (but I sure think they are cool). The Bible actually mentions large creatures that are similar to our discovery of dinosaurs. This leads me to a point I have been meaning to make---The Bible is the only ancient book that is accurate in all scientific details. Other ancient holy books include legends and errors. Even more modern holy books like the Koran are full of historical and chronological blunders. If the Bible is God's Word (as I am claiming it is)it must be infallible and without error. It would not take a whole lot of scientific or archaeological evidence to disprove the Bible. One piece is all it would take. Yet it seems the more we discover(in all areas of life)it only proves the validity of the Bible. The Bible truly is unique compared to any other book in the world.
Believer in the Truth
Wednesday, May 5, 2010
A Designer?
BTW, if the natural world had been designed by a maker I would say he/she had an odd sense of design. The vast majority (some estimate in the 90% or higher range) of species that once roamed the Earth are now extinct. Pretty inefficient designer. And what were the dinosaurs? A 50 million year experiment? If the goal was to design humans the designer missed - by a lot.
Carbon Dating
Three independent labs have carbon dated the shroud to much later than the crucifixion. BIT have attacked the results based on claims of "procedural flaws" (a common strategy). They hold test protocols to impossible standards that can never be met. The science appears to indicate that it is not genuine.
Comments are appreciated but may or may not be responded to. A conversation with one BIT is enough. I gotta make a living too ya know.
Faith and science do not, and should not, work together. Scientific inquiry does not necessary lead to faith. For some it does, for some it doesn't - this is true of all human experiences. I guess we'll have to leave it at that as it is another area where we'll have to ATD (agree to disagree).
Comments are appreciated but may or may not be responded to. A conversation with one BIT is enough. I gotta make a living too ya know.
Faith and science do not, and should not, work together. Scientific inquiry does not necessary lead to faith. For some it does, for some it doesn't - this is true of all human experiences. I guess we'll have to leave it at that as it is another area where we'll have to ATD (agree to disagree).
A Photo
Hi David,
Thanks for the pic. for my profile. You know me too well; I would have left it blank. Also want to apologize for sending the last post twice. I tried to edit and didn't realize it sent.
Just a quick comment on the Turin Shroud. I just watched a documentary not to long ago concerning the shroud. Thought it was really well done and seemed to show some solid evidence for its authenticity. That is the extent of my knowledge on it though.
I noticed that you have a couple questions posed to you in the comment section. Are you responding to those?
tj
Thanks for the pic. for my profile. You know me too well; I would have left it blank. Also want to apologize for sending the last post twice. I tried to edit and didn't realize it sent.
Just a quick comment on the Turin Shroud. I just watched a documentary not to long ago concerning the shroud. Thought it was really well done and seemed to show some solid evidence for its authenticity. That is the extent of my knowledge on it though.
I noticed that you have a couple questions posed to you in the comment section. Are you responding to those?
tj
Tuesday, May 4, 2010
Faith and Science work together
Yes, I too am excited to have this opportunity to exchange ideas and I am sure this will be good for both of us.
OK, let me start by saying-- if I don't address everything you've mentioned so far, it is not because I am ignoring an issue but only because I am trying to focus on one or two thoughts at a time. This will allow for shorter, more frequent entries.
I feel from your comments I need to clarify that I am not anti-science. The discoveries we are making concerning the physical and the natural are exciting and incredible. I just believe that faith and science should work together. Science is limited to man's capability at the time and has had to correct ideas and theories throughout history as more and more evidence presents itself. As our understanding of our world grows this should only increase our desire to know and love its Maker. God has never contradicted science... Science contradicts God when scientist try to fill in philosophical questions about how we were created without turning to God. This is where yours and my faith differs. To put your faith in science alone and believe "the cosmos is all there is and ever will be" (to quote Carl Sagan), is a pretty big leap. Science does not have all the answers, its focus is in the realm of particulars; particulars have no meaning apart from the pattern of the universal plan. It's not a "god of the gaps" error (as you mentioned) when you turn to God for the answers. God is the glue that binds all the pieces of the puzzle together. He is behind everything. The error comes in when you leave God out! Here are a few quotes from famous scientist to show this error-----
"Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." Richard Dawkins
"Biologist must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved."
Francis Clark
"Most modern biologist, having reviewed with satisfaction the downfall of the spontaneous generation hypothesis, yet unwilling to accept the alternative belief in special creation, are left with nothing. I think a scientist has no choice but to approach the orgin of life through a hypothesis of spontaneous generation. One has only to contemplate the magnitude of this talk to concede spontaneous generation of a living organism is impossible. Yet here we are."
George Wald
"An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the orgin of live appears at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going."
Francis Clark (Nobel Prize winner)
These scientist seem to refuse to follow the Truth no matter where it may lead.
"The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'" Psalm 53
Believer in the Truth
OK, let me start by saying-- if I don't address everything you've mentioned so far, it is not because I am ignoring an issue but only because I am trying to focus on one or two thoughts at a time. This will allow for shorter, more frequent entries.
I feel from your comments I need to clarify that I am not anti-science. The discoveries we are making concerning the physical and the natural are exciting and incredible. I just believe that faith and science should work together. Science is limited to man's capability at the time and has had to correct ideas and theories throughout history as more and more evidence presents itself. As our understanding of our world grows this should only increase our desire to know and love its Maker. God has never contradicted science... Science contradicts God when scientist try to fill in philosophical questions about how we were created without turning to God. This is where yours and my faith differs. To put your faith in science alone and believe "the cosmos is all there is and ever will be" (to quote Carl Sagan), is a pretty big leap. Science does not have all the answers, its focus is in the realm of particulars; particulars have no meaning apart from the pattern of the universal plan. It's not a "god of the gaps" error (as you mentioned) when you turn to God for the answers. God is the glue that binds all the pieces of the puzzle together. He is behind everything. The error comes in when you leave God out! Here are a few quotes from famous scientist to show this error-----
"Biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." Richard Dawkins
"Biologist must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved."
Francis Clark
"Most modern biologist, having reviewed with satisfaction the downfall of the spontaneous generation hypothesis, yet unwilling to accept the alternative belief in special creation, are left with nothing. I think a scientist has no choice but to approach the orgin of life through a hypothesis of spontaneous generation. One has only to contemplate the magnitude of this talk to concede spontaneous generation of a living organism is impossible. Yet here we are."
George Wald
"An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the orgin of live appears at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going."
Francis Clark (Nobel Prize winner)
These scientist seem to refuse to follow the Truth no matter where it may lead.
"The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'" Psalm 53
Believer in the Truth
Monday, May 3, 2010
A Turin Shroud
I am curious what you think of this – do you think it held Jesus? Is it an object to revere as Catholics do? Is it an object to pray over as the Pope does?
David
David
Friends
I am glad we are having this exchange, even if we never agree, it will deepen our friendship.
Sunday, May 2, 2010
Eternal Destination
It strikes me as odd that we use the same words (proof, evidence, reason) but these words have completely different meanings to us. We both want proof but I don’t think you need proof to believe as you do. It is absurd to require proof for what to me is unprovable. Schroedinger was exactly right – science IS silent regarding a creator – and that is precisely because the scientific model cannot possibly prove the existence of a god. (Some find this silence uncomfortable - many do not.) This silence does not indicate that science is lacking. Francis Collins is right – science and religion do not overlap so they are in effect silent about each other. The great mistake for centuries was that religion intruded into the world of science. I really thought we left that behind in the dark ages but I guess not.
Eternal destination – another very odd concept. But a very logical part of any belief system. If you are going to require strict adherence to a system of beliefs, give up “sinful” acts, there has to be a reward – and a dire threat if you don’t adhere. I have zero interest in eternal life. This life is plenty for me and in fact I only want to focus on making this life the best it can be. I can do this by being the best father, husband, brother, and friend – one doesn’t need to believe in a god to be a good person. Frankly I couldn’t care less about eternal life and since I don’t believe, hell doesn’t exist. (Although I’ve had a couple clients who have made me wonder……)
Hell – a strange idea indeed given the state of today’s world. There are women in Condo who are living in the worst hell right now. Raped a dozen times a day and then tortured after that. These women are already in hell. And not for any “sins” they committed – they just had the misfortune to be born in the wrong place. How do you tell a person who is treated so that they must believe as you do or you will go to hell? They don't need a savior - they need a gun - a big gun.
I really take exception to this statement in your last post: “the next step is faith (this is true for science too)”. This is not true of science. When a scientist leaps to faith simply because they cannot understand a phenomena of nature they have made the “god of the gaps” error. (When there is a gap in knowledge insert the supernatural to bridge the gap.) Indeed, if all scientists did this we would still be bleeding sick people to cure disease and epileptics would still be viewed as possessed by demons. Issac Newton even made the “god of the gaps” mistake in Principia Mathematica. He claimed all the mysteries of nature were now understood – except for the motion of the planets. This could not be explained so it was clearly the “handiwork of God”. Even undergrad physics majors in college understand the principals of orbital mechanics – no supernatural explanation is required.
Eternal destination – another very odd concept. But a very logical part of any belief system. If you are going to require strict adherence to a system of beliefs, give up “sinful” acts, there has to be a reward – and a dire threat if you don’t adhere. I have zero interest in eternal life. This life is plenty for me and in fact I only want to focus on making this life the best it can be. I can do this by being the best father, husband, brother, and friend – one doesn’t need to believe in a god to be a good person. Frankly I couldn’t care less about eternal life and since I don’t believe, hell doesn’t exist. (Although I’ve had a couple clients who have made me wonder……)
Hell – a strange idea indeed given the state of today’s world. There are women in Condo who are living in the worst hell right now. Raped a dozen times a day and then tortured after that. These women are already in hell. And not for any “sins” they committed – they just had the misfortune to be born in the wrong place. How do you tell a person who is treated so that they must believe as you do or you will go to hell? They don't need a savior - they need a gun - a big gun.
I really take exception to this statement in your last post: “the next step is faith (this is true for science too)”. This is not true of science. When a scientist leaps to faith simply because they cannot understand a phenomena of nature they have made the “god of the gaps” error. (When there is a gap in knowledge insert the supernatural to bridge the gap.) Indeed, if all scientists did this we would still be bleeding sick people to cure disease and epileptics would still be viewed as possessed by demons. Issac Newton even made the “god of the gaps” mistake in Principia Mathematica. He claimed all the mysteries of nature were now understood – except for the motion of the planets. This could not be explained so it was clearly the “handiwork of God”. Even undergrad physics majors in college understand the principals of orbital mechanics – no supernatural explanation is required.
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