David, I want proof before I make any kind of commitment or investment in this life. How much more important is it for me to be absolutely certain based upon solid evidence before accepting by faith those things that affect my eternal destination. Faith in God and His Word, is far more important than belief about things of this life. True Faith can only be founded upon fact---not feelings, intuition, or emotion. "The Faith" the Bible refers to is that body of truth which provides the only reliable answers to all of life's ultimate questions.
Yes, we can't see God but faith is the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1). Faith must never contradict evidence and reason or it would be irrational. Where evidence and reason lead, the next step is faith (this is true for science too).
Disappointment in faith comes in when you don't use evidence and reason. When people put faith in church, religion, science only, it may give you a sense of well being for a time but that belief will eventually prove to be a delusion.
Nobel laureate Erwin Schroedinger said "The scientific picture of the real world around me is ghastly silent about all that is really near to our heart, that really matters to us. It knows nothing of good or bad, God and eternity.....Whence came I and whither go I? That is the great unfathomable question, the same for every one of us. Science has no answer to it."
believer in Truth
This is a friendly conversation between you dear readers and me. I am an agnostic but love to talk to believers.
Thursday, April 29, 2010
Wednesday, April 28, 2010
A Note To Our Followers
If you find A Friendly Conversation interesting, please go to the blog and add your comments. TJ and I would love to hear from you!
David
David
A Mind Dump
A mind dump, sorry.
I find claims of "proof" by believers very odd for two reasons. One, there is nothing to prove. Faith is just that - faith. Why would a believer need to prove anything? Two, the evidence provided as proof never rises to the level of proof that would be accepted in court or by a doctor to make a diagnosis. Indeed, I doubt you would accept this level of "proof" if a car mechanic was telling you your car needed a $2000 repair.
The only evidence I have seen presented is ancient writings by unknown authors and claimed present day miracles. The writings - some in the Bible, some not. Hardly convincing proof. Jesus proved himself by fulfilling prophecy? This strikes me as a self-fulfilling prophecy - ancient writers claim X will happen in the future. Someone in the future reads the ancient writer, and poof - they claim to be X.
Miracles? This could be proven very easily to me. Jesus performed miracles in public - this is the level of proof I would need. IF the miracles are observed, measured, and verified by multiple objective observers. I guarantee then - I will be a believer. Example - walk on water. Easy to prove the deity can violate the law of gravity by independently verifying there is no support structure under the person. Document the miracle using objective tools to remove human bias and I'm a believer.
I have also heard it said it has been "proven" there is no other life in the universe. I'm sorry but this is so silly I hardly know where to begin. How do you prove a negative (no life)? You can't. The unique conditions that allow life on earth are so unusual they could never happen again? No mainstream scientist has accepted this idea. We don't begin to know enough about the universe to draw this conclusion. Yes, some who have science degrees will claim this and write nice books but they have violated their professional standards by abandoning the scientific method for understanding the world around us. Indeed, they have allowed their faith to interfere with their professional outlook. This claim also strikes me as somewhat arrogant - billions of galaxies were created for one minor species, on one minor planet, in one unremarkable solar system? In my mind Christians diminish their faith by making such claims.
A brilliant evangelical Christian scientist who does not make this mistake is Francis Collins. I've read one of his books and was very impressed by his passion for his faith and his clear argument that faith and science are two different worlds and do not overlap. Collins disputes the "proof" believers present and particularly the false "scientific" proofs. I admire Collins.
There is a geologist (don't remember his name off hand) who has a PhD in geology from Harvard who is a young earther - he has allowed his faith to so blind him that he has rejected several centuries of study, millions of pieces of scientific evidence, and now says the earth is only a handful of millennia old. As one atheist put it - "his brain is an embarrassment to humanity". Harsh yes - but I find the twisting of science to support faith deeply disturbing. It is poisoning our educational system - Texas leads the way by rejecting evolution. No other western educational system is teaching such nonsense.
Truth: that which can be objectively proven through repeatable verifiable methods. And the lack of information does not by default mean there is a god. That is the fallacy of the "god of the gaps" idea (if there is a gap in our understanding we insert god to explain it). But that is a topic for another day.
David
I find claims of "proof" by believers very odd for two reasons. One, there is nothing to prove. Faith is just that - faith. Why would a believer need to prove anything? Two, the evidence provided as proof never rises to the level of proof that would be accepted in court or by a doctor to make a diagnosis. Indeed, I doubt you would accept this level of "proof" if a car mechanic was telling you your car needed a $2000 repair.
The only evidence I have seen presented is ancient writings by unknown authors and claimed present day miracles. The writings - some in the Bible, some not. Hardly convincing proof. Jesus proved himself by fulfilling prophecy? This strikes me as a self-fulfilling prophecy - ancient writers claim X will happen in the future. Someone in the future reads the ancient writer, and poof - they claim to be X.
Miracles? This could be proven very easily to me. Jesus performed miracles in public - this is the level of proof I would need. IF the miracles are observed, measured, and verified by multiple objective observers. I guarantee then - I will be a believer. Example - walk on water. Easy to prove the deity can violate the law of gravity by independently verifying there is no support structure under the person. Document the miracle using objective tools to remove human bias and I'm a believer.
I have also heard it said it has been "proven" there is no other life in the universe. I'm sorry but this is so silly I hardly know where to begin. How do you prove a negative (no life)? You can't. The unique conditions that allow life on earth are so unusual they could never happen again? No mainstream scientist has accepted this idea. We don't begin to know enough about the universe to draw this conclusion. Yes, some who have science degrees will claim this and write nice books but they have violated their professional standards by abandoning the scientific method for understanding the world around us. Indeed, they have allowed their faith to interfere with their professional outlook. This claim also strikes me as somewhat arrogant - billions of galaxies were created for one minor species, on one minor planet, in one unremarkable solar system? In my mind Christians diminish their faith by making such claims.
A brilliant evangelical Christian scientist who does not make this mistake is Francis Collins. I've read one of his books and was very impressed by his passion for his faith and his clear argument that faith and science are two different worlds and do not overlap. Collins disputes the "proof" believers present and particularly the false "scientific" proofs. I admire Collins.
There is a geologist (don't remember his name off hand) who has a PhD in geology from Harvard who is a young earther - he has allowed his faith to so blind him that he has rejected several centuries of study, millions of pieces of scientific evidence, and now says the earth is only a handful of millennia old. As one atheist put it - "his brain is an embarrassment to humanity". Harsh yes - but I find the twisting of science to support faith deeply disturbing. It is poisoning our educational system - Texas leads the way by rejecting evolution. No other western educational system is teaching such nonsense.
Truth: that which can be objectively proven through repeatable verifiable methods. And the lack of information does not by default mean there is a god. That is the fallacy of the "god of the gaps" idea (if there is a gap in our understanding we insert god to explain it). But that is a topic for another day.
David
Tuesday, April 27, 2010
My Motivation
Yikes!! There is so much to say. I still want to respond to some things you wrote awhile back. I will try to focus on one or two thoughts as to keep it short.
You are right. My motivation for this blog is different from yours. I am passionate about Truth and I want everyone to know, especially my dear friends. I am not interested in selling you on some religion; I want you to know the God who created you. What I am hoping you will see is there is plenty of good, solid evidence backing up the Bible and Jesus. God did not ask us to follow Him without giving us PLENTY of evidence to His existence.
The quote about truth from Carl Sagan is referring to the cosmos, how we got here. He mentioned in the same lecture that "we are made of star stuff!" He is making truth claims about "How we got here; What is reality???"
I want to show you that the claims I am making concerning God appeal to facts of history that are clearly recognizable and accessible to everyone. Clark Pinnock defines these types of facts: The facts backing the Christian claim are not a special kind of religious fact. They are the cognitive, informational facts upon which all historical, legal, and ordinary decisions are based."
As far as I know, science is discovering that everything points to the universe having a beginning. No scientist can say for sure what caused that beginning. Carl Sagan has already decided there is no God so even though everything points to a creator he has already ruled out that possibility. Doesn't sound like he is "pursuing the truth no matter where it leads", as he said we all should do. I am hoping you will at least be open to my comments on here.
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:20
You are right. My motivation for this blog is different from yours. I am passionate about Truth and I want everyone to know, especially my dear friends. I am not interested in selling you on some religion; I want you to know the God who created you. What I am hoping you will see is there is plenty of good, solid evidence backing up the Bible and Jesus. God did not ask us to follow Him without giving us PLENTY of evidence to His existence.
The quote about truth from Carl Sagan is referring to the cosmos, how we got here. He mentioned in the same lecture that "we are made of star stuff!" He is making truth claims about "How we got here; What is reality???"
I want to show you that the claims I am making concerning God appeal to facts of history that are clearly recognizable and accessible to everyone. Clark Pinnock defines these types of facts: The facts backing the Christian claim are not a special kind of religious fact. They are the cognitive, informational facts upon which all historical, legal, and ordinary decisions are based."
As far as I know, science is discovering that everything points to the universe having a beginning. No scientist can say for sure what caused that beginning. Carl Sagan has already decided there is no God so even though everything points to a creator he has already ruled out that possibility. Doesn't sound like he is "pursuing the truth no matter where it leads", as he said we all should do. I am hoping you will at least be open to my comments on here.
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:20
Saturday, April 24, 2010
Carl Sagan A Believer?
Interesting that you would quote Carl Sagan. And this illustrates our problem - you and I take different meanings for the same quote. Sagan was describing the scientific model method of weeding out human bias and finding scientific truth. He was not describing any sort of search for a spiritual or religious truth. Indeed, Sagan was at least a agnostic but may have been an atheist. He is a great hero of atheists.
You have not provided any evidence that is any more compelling or persuasive than what a Muslin, Mormon, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. provide. All believers Claim the Truth and point to ancient writings to prove they are right. All religions are not the same - they vary is significant ways. I've never claimed that Christianity is the same as other religions - but the level of proof is the same: I'm right because my books says I'm right.
I stand by an earlier comment - TJ is a Christian because she was born in a Christian culture. If TJ was born in Saudia Arabia she would be a veiled Muslim woman (hard to imagine you with a veil I must admit). The faith of 99% of people is determined by where they are born. A very small number change (Black Americans who become Muslim, Jews convert to Christianity, etc.) The existence of 3-4 major religions and dozens of smaller ones, all claiming they are right, all fragmenting more and more over time (how many Christian denominations are there now?) has convinced me that all religions are inventions of humanity.
Your goal here is different than mine: you want to change my mind and get me to accept Jesus as my lord and savor. I have no desire to change your mind or the mind of anyone else. My goal is just this: to answer your question, why don't you believe in Christ? The answer will also explain why I don't believe in Zeus, the Roman God of War (Mars), or Mohammed.
Indeed you and I are more similar than different. You reject all religions but one. I reject all.
Gotta go pull weeds
David
You have not provided any evidence that is any more compelling or persuasive than what a Muslin, Mormon, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, etc. provide. All believers Claim the Truth and point to ancient writings to prove they are right. All religions are not the same - they vary is significant ways. I've never claimed that Christianity is the same as other religions - but the level of proof is the same: I'm right because my books says I'm right.
I stand by an earlier comment - TJ is a Christian because she was born in a Christian culture. If TJ was born in Saudia Arabia she would be a veiled Muslim woman (hard to imagine you with a veil I must admit). The faith of 99% of people is determined by where they are born. A very small number change (Black Americans who become Muslim, Jews convert to Christianity, etc.) The existence of 3-4 major religions and dozens of smaller ones, all claiming they are right, all fragmenting more and more over time (how many Christian denominations are there now?) has convinced me that all religions are inventions of humanity.
Your goal here is different than mine: you want to change my mind and get me to accept Jesus as my lord and savor. I have no desire to change your mind or the mind of anyone else. My goal is just this: to answer your question, why don't you believe in Christ? The answer will also explain why I don't believe in Zeus, the Roman God of War (Mars), or Mohammed.
Indeed you and I are more similar than different. You reject all religions but one. I reject all.
Gotta go pull weeds
David
Carl Sagan
From: TJ
To: David
Well I guess for now I will respond here. I'll start where you left off---a quote from Carl Sagan "We wish to pursue truth no matter where it leads. But to find the truth, we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact.....The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true."
As you said, I don't want to be talking past each other either and if we can both agree with this quote from Carl Sagan then lets grapple with the TRUTH. Lets put aside what we want to believe and see where TRUTH leads.
In my first email I mentioned how Jesus said the whole reason he came to earth was "to testify to the truth". He knew mankind would grapple with this. I know the burden lies with me to prove the reliability of Jesus words and the Bible and this is where I beg your patience. Please allow me to show how the Bible is "unique" and can not be compared to other religious books nor can Jesus be bunched together with other worldly prophets.
I will start with the Bible and just say it is unique in several different ways---Continuity, Circulation, Translation, Teachings, Influence on Literature, Influence on civilization. I would love to expand on any or all of these as you direct. It seems to me if you are searching for the truth you should turn to the book that has drawn more attention than any other in all the world. Theodore Roosevelt observed, "A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education."
TJ
To: David
Well I guess for now I will respond here. I'll start where you left off---a quote from Carl Sagan "We wish to pursue truth no matter where it leads. But to find the truth, we need imagination and skepticism both. We will not be afraid to speculate, but we will be careful to distinguish speculation from fact.....The truth may be puzzling. It may take some work to grapple with. It may be counterintuitive. It may contradict deeply held prejudices. It may not be consonant with what we desperately want to be true. But our preferences do not determine what's true."
As you said, I don't want to be talking past each other either and if we can both agree with this quote from Carl Sagan then lets grapple with the TRUTH. Lets put aside what we want to believe and see where TRUTH leads.
In my first email I mentioned how Jesus said the whole reason he came to earth was "to testify to the truth". He knew mankind would grapple with this. I know the burden lies with me to prove the reliability of Jesus words and the Bible and this is where I beg your patience. Please allow me to show how the Bible is "unique" and can not be compared to other religious books nor can Jesus be bunched together with other worldly prophets.
I will start with the Bible and just say it is unique in several different ways---Continuity, Circulation, Translation, Teachings, Influence on Literature, Influence on civilization. I would love to expand on any or all of these as you direct. It seems to me if you are searching for the truth you should turn to the book that has drawn more attention than any other in all the world. Theodore Roosevelt observed, "A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education."
TJ
Thursday, April 22, 2010
A Difficult Response
To: TJ
From: David
Date: April 21 2010
Your response made my response difficult. Been kicking around various responses for awhile. It is difficult because I concluded that we will be, and are, simply talking past each other so not sure what we will accomplish.
It is clear to me that all holy books have vile passages that believers have used to justify great evil throughout history. (Hitler said he was a Christian and said in his autobiography Mien Kamph (My Battle) "by persecuting the Jews I am doing the Lords work.) The Koran is full of vile passages, I'm sure Hindu books are, not sure about Buddhists - but yes, the Bible also. All believers respond as you did - some variant of "you are interpreting it wrong" and "here are passages that prove I'm right". Moderate Muslims say this all the time about the passages in their book. Believers always claim the extremists in their systems are not true Muslims, Christians, etc. etc. (The claimed Christian who murdered the abortion doctor used bible passages to justify his action, said he was a Christian, and I'm sure believers will claim he is not a Christian, misinterpreted the bible, etc.) The only difference between moderates and extremists - moderates explain away the vile passages and extremists embrace them. Centuries ago Christians embraced many passages rejected by today's Christians to burn people alive to "purify their souls". You would say this was not Christian but you would have lost this theological argument during the Spanish Inquisition.
What is truth? That which can be objectively proven because the gray matter in our skulls so easily deceives us. As Carl Sagen said, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".
David
Yes
To: TJ
From: David
Date: April 5 2010 later that day
I did receive it, still considering a response.
David
Are You There?
To: David
From: TJ
Date: April 5 2010
Out of curiosity, did you get my response? I wrote to you the next day and I am asking because several of my emails are not going through to people. Verizon has changed plans and we are having a lot of difficulty with this new system.
Let me know.
TJ
A Six-Shooter Death
To: David
From: TJ
Date: March 30 1010
OK, now that I know you are counting I will try to be better. In my defense---- I did just read a 27 page report from you!!
Christ alone claimed to be God; He is the only one not in the grave, (none of the others even claimed to be raised from death); He is the only one with documented miracles (not only in the Bible) and He is the only one with some 300 prophesies concerning His birth, life and death, several of which date back to 1400BC. Also the Bible is the most popular, most publized, most talked about and written about book on earth. There is a reason God said we will be without excuse and this is one of them----He gave us His Word and made sure it was passed down accurately.
As far as Joseph Smith (I know he is just one of many but you mentioned him and I only have a few words so)...Mormons claim he died as a "Christian Martyr," but the truth is he died fighting, using a six-shooter that had been smuggled to him, and he succeeded in killing at least two of his assailants." A far cry from Christ, who while being crucified, said "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do."
Now, Leviticus 25:44-46---lets go to Galatians 3:26-28 "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus...There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus." The Bible is a whole and taken as a whole it will NOT contradict itself. We must distinguish between the authoritative teaching of divine norms and the recording of permissive rules that try to protect the weak who find themselves in human situations coming from a world of sin. Slavery is not commanded or condoned in Scripture, but there are directives that seek to guide those subjected to it. Just as Joseph Smith tried to justify polygamy through the Bible (the Bible clearly states marriage should be between one man and one woman) the same is true for slavery.
Believer in Truth
TJ
Limits on Speech?
From: David
To: TJ
Date: March 29 2010
428 words. I propose we limit each response to 100 words. Brevity is more effective.
Many people have made the same claims Christ made. Joesph Smith, Mohamed, etc. For every person who chooses to embrace what Christ said there is another who will talk your ear off that Mohamad was right. Or Joesph Smith. Or whoever. If TJ were born in Saudia Arabia there is a 99% chance you would be telling me that Mohamid was right and Christ was wrong. We are all a product of the cultural we are born in.
Please explain Leviticus 25:44-46
99 words.
David
Many Dead Churches
From: TJ
To: David
Date: Mar 28, 2010
As far as the article I was not surprised in the least. Sadly I am fairly certain I have come across many pastors and religious people that would fit into this category, some in my own family. I would ask that you would try to read the rest with an open mind. You signed off saying you are a critical thinker and rational analyizer. Despite what you might think I am too. I am not interested in hearsay or believing in something as a false comfort. Over the next weeks, months?? I hope to prove this to you.
I started out by asking you the same question Pilate asked Jesus "What is truth?" The irony of this question is---- Truth was standing right in front of him. Jesus says "I am the way, the truth, and the life. The only way to the Father is through me." (John 14:6)
These pastors from the article didn't understand this. Jesus asked Simon Peter a very similar question "And how about you? who do you say I am?"' Simon Peter said, "You're the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of the living God." Jesus came back, "God bless you, Simon, son of Jonah! You didn't get that answer out of books or from teachers. My Father in heaven, God himself, let you in on this secret of who I really am. And now I'm going to tell you who you are, really are. you are Peter, a rock. This is the rock on which I will put together my church, a church so expansive with energy that not even the gates of hell will be able to keep it out." (Mathew 16:15-18) And this is exactly what He did. There are many dead churches but thank God for the ones that are expansive with energy!!
The rock Jesus spoke of here was the revelation of Jesus as the Christ that Peter expressed: Jesus as God's anointed Son, and Jesus as one's personal Lord and Savior. It is upon that rock that Jesus has always built His church. And it is without this revelation that people are led astray, even people of the established church (priest, pastors, members). They are seeking a religion over a relationship. Truth is a Person----Jesus Christ----and knowing the Truth is a relationship.
I have so much more to add but I will try to keep to a limit with each dialogue. I can not tell you how excited I am about being able to share my faith and testimony. Thank you very much for this opportunity.
The believer in the TRUTH.
TJ
A Study of Pastors
From: David
To: TJ
Subject: Re shall we begin??
Date: Mar 17, 2010
So I still haven't responded to your email - but I will! I am very intrigued by the idea of this exchange. Just been a bit too hectic lately to get started.
As I'm sure you know I am leaving tomorrow. I want to leave you with something to ponder in my absence that might help you understand why I no longer embrace Christianity (or Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, the Roman gods, the Greek gods, etc. etc. - not that I ever embraced any of the later). I don't mean to answer your question with a question - in fact I think we should agree to that rule for future exchanges. Just didn't want to leave you empty handed. I read most of this study tonight and found it fascinating and also a reflection of myself. Kind of long but a good read.
I look forward to these exchanges with the internet acting as a "saucer where rhetoric can cool" (Jefferson referring to the Senate I think).
The believer in critical thinking and rational analysis,
David
What Is Truth?
To: David
From: TJ
Date: Mar 7, 2010
Subject: shall we begin??
Hey David,
Please don't think my delay in emailing signifies a lack of desire. I have been waiting for a free minute and a clear head (neither of which happens very often any more). I'm really not sure how to start so I thought I would ask you the same question Pilate asked Jesus--
"What is truth?"
Jesus had just told Pilate--"For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. "Obviously Jesus knew Truth would be important, important enough for Him to claim that as the entire reason for His coming into the world. I think we both want to know that what we believe is "the truth" so how do we know what that is?
The believer, TJ